Western Animation - Discuss American, Canadian, and European cartoons here (or just bitch about wokeshit, I guess)

[TVB]

apparently, as of 2011, an episode of The Simpsons costs $5 million.

A typical episode of both Simpsons and Futurama costs $5 million while a typical episode of both Family Guy and American Dad costs $2 million, and that's because all the resources are spent on CG models, licensed music, celebrity guest stars, or either to all of the above and less effort on animation, the four shows that they were already built upon in the first place

I can wait for the moment, in a not so distant future, we'll talk of Hollywood being worse than Detroit.

Los Angeles is already worse than Detroit, and Minneapolis is second in line

 

[DeadwastePrime]

apparently, as of 2011, an episode of The Simpsons costs $5 million.

definitely more now because the actors will want more money for being on a show this long. just replace marge's voice actor already for the love of god

 

[starborn427614]

just replace marge's voice actor already for the love of god

That poor woman needs an early retirement, she literally sounds like Marge's mother now.

 

[Introvertigo]

https://www.twitter.com/DiscussingFilm/status/1773452406287638563

 

[Prophetic Spirit]

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Well, idk about Big Nate but Rugrats reboot was rigged from the start.

 

[A Grey Cat]

Seeing as how we've reached another milestone 100 pages I think it's best to talk about another historic animation milestone. Cgi effects. Love em or hate them they've come a long way since the days when computers rendering of images was so limited it could only render wire frames in black and white. The first cgi images like the first animated images themselves are difficult to pin down. Computer renders have been found as far back as the early 60s such as this 3d model of an AT&t communication satellite I'm orbit dating from 1963. Just 6 years after sputnik became the first object to be launched into orbit.

Other early uses of cgi are found all thorough the 60s such as the first talking cgi "character mr computer in 1968

but it's application in film didn't take off until Alfred hitchcocks North by northwest became what is belived to be the first film to use computers to digitally render titles as opposed to painted title cards or painted frames. From there the early 70s saw attempts to design people in cgi...the results were well theres a reason it's called the uncanny valley.

Cgi animation really took off in the 80s albeit in small quantities. While pixar would love to stroke their ego amd claim Andre and wally b (1984) was the first full cgi animated short film that honor technically belongs to a 1982 French short film dream flight.

See you in another 100 pages.

 

[Coolio55]

Seeing as how we've reached another milestone 100 pages I think it's best to talk about another historic animation milestone. Cgi effects. Love em or hate them they've come a long way since the days when computers rendering of images was so limited it could only render wire frames in black and white. The first cgi images like the first animated images themselves are difficult to pin down. Computer renders have been found as far back as the early 60s such as this 3d model of an AT&t communication satellite I'm orbit dating from 1963. Just 6 years after sputnik became the first object to be launched into orbit.

Other early uses of cgi are found all thorough the 60s such as the first talking cgi "character mr computer in 1968

but it's application in film didn't take off until Alfred hitchcocks North by northwest became what is belived to be the first film to use computers to digitally render titles as opposed to painted title cards or painted frames. From there the early 70s saw attempts to design people in cgi...the results were well theres a reason it's called the uncanny valley.

Cgi animation really took off in the 80s albeit in small quantities. While pixar would love to stroke their ego amd claim Andre and wally b (1984) was the first full cgi animated short film that honor technically belongs to a 1982 French short film dream flight.

See you in another 100 pages.

I probably got it from here (either that or the youtube algorithm) but I really like the early Synthavision/MAGI stuff from the 70's and 80's.

This shit is trippy as hell and dances about in the back of my brain. The next video is also good but far less mesmerizing.

 

[starborn427614]

Well, idk about Big Nate but Rugrats reboot was rigged from the start.

Nothing was going to beat the original Rugrats anyway. On the plus side (and in a different medium), there's a new 2D platformer coming out that actually seems pretty good.

 

[Life is Hell...]

Seeing as how we've reached another milestone 100 pages I think it's best to talk about another historic animation milestone. Cgi effects. Love em or hate them they've come a long way since the days when computers rendering of images was so limited it could only render wire frames in black and white. The first cgi images like the first animated images themselves are difficult to pin down. Computer renders have been found as far back as the early 60s such as this 3d model of an AT&t communication satellite I'm orbit dating from 1963. Just 6 years after sputnik became the first object to be launched into orbit.

Other early uses of cgi are found all thorough the 60s such as the first talking cgi "character mr computer in 1968

but it's application in film didn't take off until Alfred hitchcocks North by northwest became what is belived to be the first film to use computers to digitally render titles as opposed to painted title cards or painted frames. From there the early 70s saw attempts to design people in cgi...the results were well theres a reason it's called the uncanny valley.

Cgi animation really took off in the 80s albeit in small quantities. While pixar would love to stroke their ego amd claim Andre and wally b (1984) was the first full cgi animated short film that honor technically belongs to a 1982 French short film dream flight.

See you in another 100 pages.

I probably got it from here (either that or the youtube algorithm) but I really like the early Synthavision/MAGI stuff from the 70's and 80's.

This shit is trippy as hell and dances about in the back of my brain. The next video is also good but far less mesmerizing.

This one guy made a pretty good video talking about Early CGI demos, including the ones by Synthavision/MAGI

 

[A Grey Cat]

Nothing was going to beat the original Rugrats anyway.

You know what the worst part is? with that rugrats reboot and it's pretty much confirmed we're gonna be getting reboots of ren and and stimpy and Doug soon no doubts about them (though the Doug reboot does have Jim attached as more than just a producer for name recognition...seemingly)



All three of the original nicktoons from August of 1991 have all been rebooted. Rugrats was a bomb, ren and stimpy so far reeks of "howdy do fellow kids" and doug....well we still have to wait on that. Time loops back around in on itself it seems but rarely is that ever a good thing.

 

[Basic Blond Boy]

I wonder if it just happened that tons of talent from the 80's retired in the 2010's and were replaced by their children/biggest ass kissers, or is it the 2008 economic crisis that made every American corpo realize that they are too big to fail. In any case post Trump any remaining talent the industry had was nuked.

Animation-wise, it was a very calculated effort to destroy the industry, with many events taking place way before 2008. A big reason animation was ever able to flourish in the west during the 90s was mostly due to the rise of tons of new networks that were desperate for content, along with the Disney boom come The Little Mermaid, which itself came off the Star Wars boom. From there it was a downhill spiral of corporate decision making and not knowing how to work the industry.

A big thing to commend anime on over western toons is the marketing and merchandise. Anime knew how to milk products in a way the west didn't, especially when it came to older audiences. So much of the industry has struggled to merchandise, with many shows getting barely anything. Toy manufactures claim they cannot work with creator-driven shows. An example of this being Symbiotic Titans, which got cancelled because they .... couldn't sell a girl character? While anime is making bank off shirts, statues, pillows, you name it, the west cannot develop anything to market a majority of its brands on that are not toys.

Beyond the marketing issue, there are so many reasons the industry fell apart, that I may as well spitfire them:

1. Anime boom killed off cartoons as it was cheaper to import. Prime example is The Animaniacs, which WB got rid of because Pokémon was bigger. Later, pretty much every action series got canned for anime or because anime could not prop them up like it could pre-internet.
2. Resting on laurels: Nickelodeon is the biggest offender of this as they deliberately sabotaged multiple animation projects believing SpongeBob will carry the network. El Tigre and Making Fiends are both pre-08 productions that got railed by Nick executives setting them up with terrible watch times and conditions then using the fact they weren’t as popular as the Sponge as justification to cancel them.
3. Mergers: I believe someone posted a video on Pixar in here earlier, which went into detail about how Disney sabotaged them upon buyout. Disney turned them into a sequel factory and later fired the talents within the company. Beyond that, you can find other examples like Warner and CN. Warner heavily changed the network. A good example is ripping Van Partible off his own show because they wanted "experienced" animators.
4. The real TV Boom: Cartoon Network and MTV in particular gave up animation to chase the low-budget trends set by Survivor.
5. Bayformers: Cartoons can now be turned into big-budget live-action money machines. The MCU likely did a number on the industry, especially in terms of killing action cartoons.
6. The tech wall: Following up on above, so much of the animation industry was predicated on technology improving throughout the 90s-00s. By 2010, the industry hit a wall in how much farther they can go in terms of CG, which did a number on Pixar and DreamWorks. America's specialty was graphics, but that specialty had an end point that inevitably caught up.

This was all (mostly) before 08 BTW. Once 08 came, every company cracked down on new IPs as being too risky/costly. Lots of talent was lost when companies refused to work with unions, instead bringing in new talents. Most new talents had little reason to try as, according to someone in the Star Wars thread, the companies changed the deals to own every asset and make it so that the royalty heavy systems of old were gone.

 

[PS1gamenwatch]

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Nothing beats the original

They should have done a Dummi Bears spinoff and made it their version of MLP FIM

 

[Thiletonomics]

Animation-wise, it was a very calculated effort to destroy the industry, with many events taking place way before 2008. A big reason animation was ever able to flourish in the west during the 90s was mostly due to the rise of tons of new networks that were desperate for content, along with the Disney boom come The Little Mermaid, which itself came off the Star Wars boom. From there it was a downhill spiral of corporate decision making and not knowing how to work the industry.

How much of it was also due to Canadian animated shows (i.e. FreshTV's 6teen and Total Drama) being imported to the US, since those shows were cheaper to make (I think), compared to US productions? I would like see how the costs of making a Total Drama season would be, compared to one season of ATLA, which aired around the same time.

 

[TVB]

Beyond the marketing issue, there are so many reasons the industry fell apart, that I may as well spitfire them:

1. Anime boom killed off cartoons as it was cheaper to import. Prime example is The Animaniacs, which WB got rid of because Pokémon was bigger. Later, pretty much every action series got canned for anime or because anime could not prop them up like it could pre-internet.
2. Resting on laurels: Nickelodeon is the biggest offender of this as they deliberately sabotaged multiple animation projects believing SpongeBob will carry the network. El Tigre and Making Fiends are both pre-08 productions that got railed by Nick executives setting them up with terrible watch times and conditions then using the fact they weren’t as popular as the Sponge as justification to cancel them.
3. Mergers: I believe someone posted a video on Pixar in here earlier, which went into detail about how Disney sabotaged them upon buyout. Disney turned them into a sequel factory and later fired the talents within the company. Beyond that, you can find other examples like Warner and CN. Warner heavily changed the network. A good example is ripping Van Partible off his own show because they wanted "experienced" animators.
4. The real TV Boom: Cartoon Network and MTV in particular gave up animation to chase the low-budget trends set by Survivor.
5. Bayformers: Cartoons can now be turned into big-budget live-action money machines. The MCU likely did a number on the industry, especially in terms of killing action cartoons.
6. The tech wall: Following up on above, so much of the animation industry was predicated on technology improving throughout the 90s-00s. By 2010, the industry hit a wall in how much farther they can go in terms of CG, which did a number on Pixar and DreamWorks. America's specialty was graphics, but that specialty had an end point that inevitably caught up.

You forgot adult animation 2010s onward where sitcoms have artstyles that ripoff Matt Groening and Seth MacFarlane's artstyles while having edgy and nihilistic writing and characters minus the creativity and having more emphasis on being "relatable" by forcing sad, emotional beats while action shows try hard to replicate the anime aesthetics

 

[Basic Blond Boy]

How much of it was also due to Canadian animated shows (i.e. FreshTV's 6teen and Total Drama) being imported to the US, since those shows were cheaper to make (I think), compared to US productions? I would like see how the costs of making a Total Drama season would be, compared to one season of ATLA, which aired around the same time.

The shows are definitely cheaper to make, but it wouldn’t matter either way. Canada has a law called the Broadcasting Act which forces radio and television companies to produce “x” amount of Canadian-made content. Majority of the Leaf cartoons are cheaply made to fulfill the mandate.

FreshTV’s trio (Total Drama, 6Teen, and Stoked) are a bit of an anomaly for being quality productions.

 

[AnAccount]

Latest bluey episode was Cool.

 

[Kari Kamiya]

This was all (mostly) before 08 BTW. Once 08 came, every company cracked down on new IPs as being too risky/costly.

Anime got affected by the global recession, too, most people just didn't notice since they practically doubled down on anime production and that's why we have so many seasonals. Though I noticed scrolling through the years that anime production during the Lost Decade also boomed. It's almost like although producers began taking less risks in original IPs (but not outright against it), they understood anime was a form of escapism and still remained a huge moneymaker in merchandise even when the economy was struggling.

That may be another reason why Western cartoons have failed to gain an audience since the 2010s. It's no longer about escapism and entertainment, it's about "taking a stand" or "proving a point", and people don't like being preached/talked down to.

 

[Basic Blond Boy]

Anime got affected by the global recession, too, most people just didn't notice since they practically doubled down on anime production and that's why we have so many seasonals. Though I noticed scrolling through the years that anime production during the Lost Decade also boomed. It's almost like although producers began taking less risks in original IPs (but not outright against it), they understood anime was a form of escapism and still remained a huge moneymaker in merchandise even when the economy was struggling.

That may be another reason why Western cartoons have failed to gain an audience since the 2010s. It's no longer about escapism and entertainment, it's about "taking a stand" or "proving a point", and people don't like being preached/talked down to.

Anime built up a much stronger audience and did a lot more to maintain older viewers. I sort of highlighted that in the merchandise section, but anime knew how to market better. Anime can rely on weebs buying hundred dollar statues, whereas western animation stuck to primarily kids. A lot of western shows don’t even have avenues to make money beyond ads and maybe some ts on the company site - A good chunk of CN shows never got official merchandise: Chowder, Flapjack, Total Drama, etc.. Disney is the only animation company to heavily dive into products for older fans in addition to the younger: designer bags, jewelry, makeup products, statues, etc..

The merchandise problem balloons into everything else. Cannot make adult animation as you cannot sell merchandise with it. Action cartoons, nah too expensive, and kids don’t buy toys. Any show that primarily gets an older audience (or even different gender) is also basically DOA since the merchandise isn’t designed for them. The marketing and merch was far too rigid to expand the industry with.

Western animation was a blimp in time of great things, but never cultivated anything out of it. They could never get merchandisers to fully work with them to ensure money was coming through. There were too many indecisive heads that would come in and rip up projects for any number of stupid reasons. And the reality is, Hollywood will never take animation as a viable thing. Audiences are set to always see it as for children, and the people within the industry actively hate it and will do anything to find cheaper or more respectable alternatives. At best, animation was a showcase for tech bros throughout the 90s and 00s.

 

[starborn427614]

The worst part about the lack of merch is that there was definitely an audience out there for it. Many modern shows reach beyond their target demographics to people with a lot of disposable income. It's not that there wasn't anything, but it was mainly reserved for books and apparel.

 

[Mr. 0]

Mergers: I believe someone posted a video on Pixar in here earlier, which went into detail about how Disney sabotaged them upon buyout. Disney turned them into a sequel factory and later fired the talents within the company. Beyond that, you can find other examples like Warner and CN. Warner heavily changed the network. A good example is ripping Van Partible off his own show because they wanted "experienced" animators.

Van Partible was a hack who was carried by the other people working on his show (Steve Marmel, Seth McFarlane, Butch Hartman). The fact that Johnny Bravo's 4th season with him back at the wheel (but none of the other guys) and was the least well-received season despite having all the things the 1st season did points to this. He even later admitted in an interview that he took a course in management that led to him subtly acknowledging he fucked up his showrunner duties.

As a side-note, this should've been a contender for series finale: