Why do we put so much stock into loli/underaged characters as a direct link to being a pedo?

[Lightsaber Dildo]

I hope you are accidentally mixing those names up.

Yeah I did, it was backwards because I only have 2 braincells dedicated to discourse on KF.

No, I'm saying it's secondary, and by a long shot. If you have a character who is visually 80, but canonically 8, nobody is going to care nearly as much if you fap to your 80 8 year old waifu.

It shouldn't be secondary. You yourself just said that the appearance of a character matters more than the age, but age is a very clear-cut metric for defining whether someone is legal or not. Appearance is not, and in a fictional context, it's actually 100x harder.

Now if you reverse that, that's when there's a much bigger problem, your 9000 year old succubus is 9 and it doesn't really matter to people even if you insist she's not actually 9 or even human. How can you artistically justify that in a pornographic context?

It's the other way around actually, you'd have to prove to a jury that said 9000 year old succubus looks like a 9 year old child, AND prove that the content has no artistic merit. Which is actually very hard to do, and my further responses will add to this point. Seriously imagine a fucking lawyer in a court room pointing out similarities between a photo of 9 year old girl and a fucking big-headed bug-eyed anime character.

"ahhh hmm the width of the hips is very reminiscent of a child's...mmmmmh..."
"Objection your honor, the artist just sucks at drawing women"

if the cartoon character is indistinguishable in terms of design from adult characters, it's literally just an adult for all intents and purposes.

I could drop plenty of anime characters on you right now that I'm 100% sure you wouldn't be able to reliably tell if they were adults or not.

Take our weirdo friend's example of Saber from Fate. She operates as an authority figure, she is physically capable, and portrayed as both mentally and emotionally mature. However she is magically locked into an un-aging body that stopped growing between 15-18. That person, if they existed, would have the capability to consent and it would not be weird to date them. However, by the accepted logic of obscenity laws, porn of Saber both could and could not be considered obscene, only because these circumstances exist fictionally. If you took someone to court over Saber porn the argument would be down to whether or not she looks like a petite woman or a teenager. How in the world does that make sense?

Because we can separate fiction and reality? That doesn't absolve said fiction of obscenity but it does mean we judge it differently.

We can? Everyone in this thread, including you, are leading me to believe otherwise. Obscenity is subjective anyway, that's why the law is unenforceable.

What if Toriyama changes her canon age right as the bullet passes through my skull, are you going to prison for murder?

You're just adding to my point that obscenity laws make no sense when applied to fiction, since the fiction can be changed or interpreted at a whim. The only case you have for obscenity laws is depictions of EXTREMELY OBVIOUS pedophilia, which is basically 1% or less of hentai. At that point, who the fuck are you prosecuting? Basically nobody, because you can't enforce the law, but you'd only be getting the most retarded of pedophiles, and even then, those pedophiles are likely harmless already. You will accomplish exponentially less for protecting kids than, say, I don't know, background checking teachers or making in-depth investigations into Catholic churches across the world. I'm adding to my point by saying obscenity laws applied to fiction are pointless since they cannot be enforced.

 

[WelperHelper99]

I could drop plenty of anime characters on you right now that I'm 100% sure you wouldn't be able to reliably tell if they were adults or not.

Take our weirdo friend's example of Saber from Fate. She operates as an authority figure, she is physically capable, and portrayed as both mentally and emotionally mature. However she is magically locked into an un-aging body that stopped growing between 15-18. That person, if they existed, would have the capability to consent and it would not be weird to date them. However, by the accepted logic of obscenity laws, porn of Saber both could and could not be considered obscene, only because these circumstances exist fictionally. If you took someone to court over Saber porn the argument would be down to whether or not she looks like a petite woman or a teenager. How in the world does that make sense?

It would depend on the porn in question, now wouldn't it? It should be noted that what HAS been prosecuted under Obscenity laws is downright monstrous. Saber is honestly pretty tame as is. Looking at a standard classic portrait of her:

Nothing is screaming crazy about her design. She's certainly not 5. She's not overly short, I cant even see her wrists, shes very covered up. You could argue pretty convincingly they were going for petite and a rather timeless design. Even in age, canonically, she died at 30 before becoming a servant.

What you're going for is acting like a court couldn't see nuance. You are very much muddying the waters on a easy issue.

 

[Mewtwo_Rain]

I think you have a good point. In the end, anime is trying to sell you shit. Be it manga, blu rays, action figures, statutes, cards, it's trying to make you buy stuff. Big busty chicks is how you sell statues, flat out. Unfortunately that means they tackle the other end of the market with the lolis.

In the end, what drives the loli industrial complex is a lot of suits in ties crunching numbers. It's why you have shows where there's one in there that basically does nothing. It's there for appeal. And it's disgusting.

Or even using FSN Novels the sex scenes are literally selling sex to get people to buy such concepts. Despite being so popular later on down the line they expand it to consoles removing the sex scenes or adding features to skip/fast forward as mentioned, and why the anime steers away from it because the fan base probably pointed out they care more about the plot in FSN because it's that good/character designs. It's why FSN has so many spin offs because people love seeing fictional/historical figures remade in said series, it intrigues to see where they will go with a past hero or villain or what not. * I'm sure some fans love the sex scenes but due to being popular without them such as the anime it's not said anime's/series driving force.

I wish I still had the manga scan but a mangaka once made a scene in an old harem novel where they basically point out they were forced to make overt sexual scenes because the bigwigs in the company thought it wouldn't sell without it and even included a little sister type because they were forced too by the editors or something, despite not liking having to force the inclusion of said characters. Edit: No sexual scene with said character but pushed to create the mental imagery of such a concept for obvious and despicable reasons.

I prefer to call it corporatism when referencing it as an aspect of consumerism but it really hurts all producers/developers in the same vain being forced to hopefully add imaginary number sales due to corporate greed and stupidity. Same reason they hate the used market and more.

 

[WelperHelper99]

Or even using FSN Novels the sex scenes are literally selling sex to get people to buy such concepts. Despite being so popular later on down the line they expand it to consoles removing the sex scenes or adding features to skip/fast forward as mentioned, and why the anime steers away from it because the fan base probably pointed out they care more about the plot in FSN because it's that good/character designs. It's why FSN has so many spin offs because people love seeing fictional/historical figures remade in said series, it intrigues to see where they will go with a past hero or villain or what not. * I'm sure some fans love the sex scenes but due to being popular without them such as the anime it's not said anime's/series driving force.

They actually talked about it. They added the sex scenes in the first place to boost SALES. And reading them... yeah, it felt like it. It explains why Type Moon was not very attached when the ps2 version came, and they cut that shit; they didn't actually need it.

I wish I still had the manga scan but a mangaka once made a scene in an old harem novel where they basically point out they were forced to make overt sexual scenes because the bigwigs in the company thought it wouldn't sell without it and even included a little sister type because they were forced too by the editors or something, despite not liking having to force the inclusion of said characters. Edit: No sexual scene with said character but pushed to create the mental imagery of such a concept for obvious and despicable reasons.

I prefer to call it corporatism when referencing it as an aspect of consumerism but it really hurts all producers/developers in the same vain being forced to hopefully add imaginary number sales due to corporate greed and stupidity. Same reason they hate the used market and more.

I can fully believe that's why there's so much sexual shit in otherwise clean stories. Sometimes you can tell, because it just doesn't gel with the rest of the anime. Corporate suits are a scourge on anime

 

[The Ugly One]

It's the other way around actually, you'd have to prove to a jury that said 9000 year old succubus looks like a 9 year old child, AND prove that the content has no artistic merit. Which is actually very hard to do,

Only if the jury is full of pedo weebs. Pedo weeb arguments don't actually work on anyone except other pedo weebs.

 

[Lightsaber Dildo]

It would depend on the porn in question, now wouldn't it? It should be noted that what HAS been prosecuted under Obscenity laws is downright monstrous. Saber is honestly pretty tame as is. Looking at a standard classic portrait of her:
View attachment 5743386
Nothing is screaming crazy about her design. She's certainly not 5. She's not overly short, I cant even see her wrists, shes very covered up. You could argue pretty convincingly they were going for petite and a rather timeless design. Even in age, canonically, she died at 30 before becoming a servant.

What you're going for is acting like a court couldn't see nuance. You are very much muddying the waters on a easy issue.

Then you see my point, that if you make these very vague obscenity laws, they would have the maximum potential to be applied incorrectly. If you're only concerned about overt, extremely obvious lolicon art, you are not going to be taking away much material from pedophiles, only a very small minority of the material.

And no, the issue is not "easy", as is the point of this thread. Since no one can prove that lolicon material causes children to be molested, the issue has turned to what constitutes the vague concept of "obscenity" and just getting rid of obscene material for the sake of it, a typical puritan christfag approach to icky things that would make God piss and shit himself.

Only if the jury is full of pedo weebs. Pedo weeb arguments don't actually work on anyone except other pedo weebs.

Hate to break it to you, but a lot of people apparently can't tell fiction from reality, yourself included, so I have incredibly low expectations for a jury of the common normie populace to tell what is or isn't an obscene cartoon.

Seriously, would you not feel like a fucking idiot sitting and listening to boomers in a courtroom argue whether or not a fat neckbeard's badly drawn cartoon porn was CP or not? Wouldn't you feel like it's a waste of everyone's time? Do you really think you're protecting kids with this shit? It seems more to me like virtue signaling.

 

[WelperHelper99]

Then you see my point, that if you make these very vague obscenity laws, they would have the maximum potential to be applied incorrectly. If you're only concerned about overt, extremely obvious lolicon art, you are not going to be taking away much material from pedophiles, only a very small minority of the material.

And no, the issue is not "easy", as is the point of this thread. Since no one can prove that lolicon material causes children to be molested, the issue has turned to what constitutes the vague concept of "obscenity" and just getting rid of obscene material for the sake of it, a typical puritan christfag approach to icky things that would make God piss and shit himself.

I don't agree with you. First off the laws exist. Your arguments of them getting applied incorrectly are moot; every time they have regarding lolicon, it's been deserving

Second: im not blind. A toddler getting railed by horse cocks is obscene even if it is never prosecuted ala Vaush. You are deliberately trying to obfuscate the point of what everyone means by lolicon: 5 year olds. You know it, i know it.

Hate to break it to you, but a lot of people apparently can't tell fiction from reality, yourself included, so I have incredibly low expectations for a jury of the common normie populace to tell what is or isn't an obscene cartoon.

Seriously, would you not feel like a fucking idiot sitting and listening to boomers in a courtroom argue whether or not a fat neckbeard's badly drawn cartoon porn was CP or not? Wouldn't you feel like it's a waste of everyone's time? Do you really think you're protecting kids with this shit? It seems more to me like virtue signali

No I'd actually find it worth the public interest to find out what the limits of art truly are. I think normal people are pretty reasonable all things considered. Things such as Postal have been deemed to be art, a game with school shootings, and if that's art, I'm just saying, the bar is pretty fucking high to be obscene.

 

[Lightsaber Dildo]

You are deliberately trying to obfuscate the point of what everyone means by lolicon: 5 year olds. You know it, i know it.

Then the laws should simply reflect that! If we must have obscenity laws then let them reflect that. It's a bit of a bad look for a law to say "drawings of children under 13 are bad" when another law says "you must be 18 to legally have sex" but whatever, it wouldn't affect me (or anyone who matters, really) if lolicon went away, since you can only find it if you look for it.

It seems to me like people really trust the justice system to apply these laws correctly, and I don't--they don't even enforce them now, and they're extremely vague as is.

I wholly disagree that obscenity laws should encompass wholly fictional material, but I completely understand not wanting lolicon to exist. As controversial as it is, I'm more comfortable with pedos whacking it to fucked up drawings in their basement than I am giving a government the ability to decide things like obscenity and artistic merit. They could say lolicon is obscene one day, then say talking shit about the president is obscene the next.

I'm just saying, the bar is pretty fucking high to be obscene.

If most kiwis had their way, all porn, even softcore shit, would be illegal. The bar for "obscenity" in the average kiwi's book is pretty fucking low, honestly, which is why I'm surprised some people fervently against lolicon in this thread are also very obviously implying that you can jack off to minors as long as they look like adults.

 

[WelperHelper99]

Then the laws should simply reflect that! If we must have obscenity laws then let them reflect that. It's a bit of a bad look for a law to say "drawings of children under 13 are bad" when another law says "you must be 18 to legally have sex" but whatever, it wouldn't affect me (or anyone who matters, really) if lolicon went away, since you can only find it if you look for it.

It seems to me like people really trust the justice system to apply these laws correctly, and I don't--they don't even enforce them now, and they're extremely vague as is.

I wholly disagree that obscenity laws should encompass wholly fictional material, but I completely understand not wanting lolicon to exist. As controversial as it is, I'm more comfortable with pedos whacking it to fucked up drawings in their basement than I am giving a government the ability to decide things like obscenity and artistic merit. They could say lolicon is obscene one day, then say talking shit about the president is obscene the next.

If most kiwis had their way, all porn, even softcore shit, would be illegal. The bar for "obscenity" in the average kiwi's book is pretty fucking low, honestly, which is why I'm surprised some people fervently against lolicon in this thread are also very obviously implying that you can jack off to minors as long as they look like adults.

Your autism refuses to see why the law is vague. That is how it is fair. A law on obscenity and the first amendment run counter to eachother. In order for them to work, EACH case must be weighed on the scales of justice. It must be proven to be a exception.

In that I do have faith in the system. It's track record on these cases is solid. Your distrust of "government" as you call it despite every fact proving that the defendant has the advantage, tells me much about what you're really sperging about.

 

[YourFriendlyLurker 2.0]

I would't call someone jerking off to cartoons a full-fledged pedo like I woudn't call a random furry suit owner a straight forward zoophile, but it is the hell of the first step in that direction.

 

[Lightsaber Dildo]

Your autism refuses to see why the law is vague. That is how it is fair. A law on obscenity and the first amendment run counter to eachother. In order for them to work, EACH case must be weighed on the scales of justice. It must be proven to be a exception.

In that I do have faith in the system. It's track record on these cases is solid. Your distrust of "government" as you call it despite every fact proving that the defendant has the advantage, tells me much about what you're really sperging about.

We're both sperging about different things. You're mad that icky drawings exist, I'm mad that reactionary retards exist.

Really weird that users on a forum, one that wouldn't be allowed to exist without freedom of expression, would poke holes into said freedoms just for their own sensibilities. Unfortunately, degenerate pedos are going to keep beating it to wacky cartoon children and there's nothing you can do about it. I've accepted this as reality, so I don't really have to give a shit.

 

[The Ugly One]

Then you see my point, that if you make these very vague obscenity laws, they would have the maximum potential to be applied incorrectly. If you're only concerned about overt, extremely obvious lolicon art, you are not going to be taking away much material from pedophiles, only a very small minority of the material.

And no, the issue is not "easy", as is the point of this thread. Since no one can prove that lolicon material causes children to be molested, the issue has turned to what constitutes the vague concept of "obscenity" and just getting rid of obscene material for the sake of it, a typical puritan christfag approach to icky things that would make God piss and shit himself.

Hate to break it to you, but a lot of people apparently can't tell fiction from reality, yourself included, so I have incredibly low expectations for a jury of the common normie populace to tell what is or isn't an obscene cartoon.

Seriously, would you not feel like a fucking idiot sitting and listening to boomers in a courtroom argue whether or not a fat neckbeard's badly drawn cartoon porn was CP or not? Wouldn't you feel like it's a waste of everyone's time? Do you really think you're protecting kids with this shit? It seems more to me like virtue signaling.

None of this wall-of-text you're vomiting out here has done anything to convince me you're not a pedophile.

 

[WelperHelper99]

We're both sperging about different things. You're mad that icky drawings exist, I'm mad that reactionary retards exist.

Really weird that a users on forum that wouldn't be allowed to exist without freedom of expression would poke holes into it just for their own sensibilities. Unfortunately, degenerate pedos are going to keep beating it to wacky cartoon children and there's nothing you can do about it. I've accepted this as reality, so I don't really have to give a shit.

You are very... libertarian. You talk about freedom but not its natural balance in nature, order. You're also calling me a reactionary. People who say those words are either communists or those with something desperate to hide. I think you should have your hard drive searched.

 

[Lightsaber Dildo]

None of this wall-of-text you're vomiting out here has done anything to convince me you're not a pedophile.

I don't have to convince you of something that's already true. Stay mad about drawings though.

You are very... libertarian. You talk about freedom but not its natural balance in nature, order. You're also calling me a reactionary. People who say those words are either communists or those with something desperate to hide. I think you should have your hard drive searched.

This entire post should be in the dictionary for "projection". And you are a reactionary, you see a drawing of a child and your panties get all twisted. You want it burned and condemned, almost like you're scared of something about yourself.

 

[WelperHelper99]

This entire post should be in the dictionary for "projection". And you are a reactionary, you see a drawing of a child and your panties get all twisted. You want it burned and condemned, almost like you're scared of something about yourself.

Lmao. Cope. And excuse me if I don't like seeing 5 year olds getting raped.

 

[Lightsaber Dildo]

Lmao. Cope. And excuse me if I don't like seeing 5 year olds getting raped.

Your waifu is an underdeveloped 15 year old girl that has been sexualized since her inception, you had no ground to stand on before you even entered this thread.

On a serious note, I accept that obscenity laws have a place and realize the good intention behind them. I don't like them as a concept, but since I don't consume obscene content and the laws are almost never enforced anyway, they couldn't possibly affect me or any other sane person. I personally believe they're wholly unnecessary and that vagueness in laws is never ever a good thing (see: every time the fucking government tries to regulate the internet). But if obscenity laws help people sleep at night and think they somehow keep children safe, then I have no real good reason to be against them until they are misused, instead of being paranoid about how they could be misused.

 

[WelperHelper99]

Your waifu is an underdeveloped 15 year old girl that has been sexualized since her inception, you had no ground to stand on before you even entered this thread.

Ok bro. Whatever you need to say to win the argument.

On a serious note, I accept that obscenity laws have a place and realize the good intention behind them. I don't like them as a concept, but since I don't consume obscene content and the laws are almost never enforced anyway, they couldn't possibly affect me or any other sane person. I personally believe they're wholly unnecessary and that vagueness in laws is never ever a good thing (see: every time the fucking government tries to regulate the internet). But if obscenity laws help people sleep at night and think they somehow keep children safe, then I have no real good reason to be against them until they are misused, instead of being paranoid about how they could be misused.

Glad to know you're a good boy with a clean hard drive.

 

[Iron Father]

I'm going to take a break on this as to not spread any more negativity. To sum up my point, fiction is not reality. It can certainly be icky though.

Take a permanent break from existence.

 

[SSj_Ness (Yiffed)]

Fair, but I'm meaning to a general normie audience in what pertains as art. Compared to say a drawing of a flower or Mona Lisa, it'd obviously be considered more obscene.

Absolutely, but it's a matter of degrees, at least from a legal perspective.

Some I agree are just doing general marketing however some mangaka have come out as pedophiles and the implications go deeper than that with some of their works.

Yeah, I wouldn't doubt that one bit.

No it's obvious I just feel if you want to run that comparison I'd recommend saying people who watch something like Yugi-tubers as those people are definitely pushing people even non-Yugioh players (MTG players/etc.) to play and the only reason to watch well would be interest in the direct card game. Just a personal nitpick at best to why I disagree with it or something I believe is more solid and applicable to what you're getting at.

I see, I'm not really familiar with the community stuff, but that's interesting.

You yourself just said that the appearance of a character matters more than the age, but age is a very clear-cut metric for defining whether someone is legal or not.

...in REAL LIFE it is, yes. We don't judge cartoons how we judge people, because, again, we can differentiate between fiction and reality, and judge them accordingly.

If you see a wrinkly old woman in real life you can fuck her silly without a care in the world because you know she's legal, but in fantasyland that old woman may be 2 years old, but it's still a depiction of an old lady regardless of what the canon technically is; you are fapping to an old woman, not a 2 year old.

Not to say there's nothing strange there, of course. If you're getting off to the notion of a 2 year old in any way, shape, or form, even if it's hentai of an old woman who's "only" canonically 2, then you are mentally ill (the only possible exception being if you just like old ladies and the old lady from that story is the hottest granny around, so you fap to her in spite of the weird story). But the imagery itself is not as obscene, though one could argue the story certainly is, if such a story is present.

And this is why just having a blanket ban on porn us preferable, bypassing all this nonsense.

It's the other way around actually, you'd have to prove to a jury that said 9000 year old succubus looks like a 9 year old child

Assuming the art is realistic enough and not Power Puff Girls tier, that should be easy, assuming the jury isn't blind.

AND prove that the content has no artistic merit.

If it's pornographic that's easy.

Seriously imagine a fucking lawyer in a court room pointing out similarities between a photo of 9 year old girl and a fucking big-headed bug-eyed anime character.

As previously stated, it depends on the art style, not every anime looks like this, as convenient as it is to imply otherwise:

"Objection your honor, the artist just sucks at drawing women"

"Is that why he won all of these awards, and is a famous artist?"

I could drop plenty of anime characters on you right now that I'm 100% sure you wouldn't be able to reliably tell if they were adults or not.

So? I never denied ambiguity exists, but there's nothing ambiguous about a lot of characters. What you're doing is the abortion debate equivalent of focusing on rape and incest cases.

Obscenity is subjective anyway, that's why the law is unenforceable.

Oh? Is it?

https://kiwifarms.st/threads/texas-man-sentenced-to-40-years-for-running-website-of-stories-about-raping-murdering-children.182901/

The only case you have for obscenity laws is depictions of EXTREMELY OBVIOUS pedophilia, which is basically 1% or less of hentai.

There's no way you didn't simply pull that figure straight out of your ass, but even 1% of what's probably billions of images is nothing to scoff at.

Tell me why that shouldn't be banned, what good does having millions of pieces of content which is "EXTREMELY OBVIOUS pedophilia" available do? Would the world not be a better place without it?

You will accomplish exponentially less for protecting kids than, say, I don't know, background checking teachers or making in-depth investigations into Catholic churches across the world.

It doesn't even matter if this protects kids or not, it should be banned because it's obscene. That's a good enough reason.

If you want additional rationale, I'd argue loli is actually worse for kids than adults, because if they see it (and they probably will these days) it could normalize adult/child relationships in their mind. For argument's sake, adults may be able to rationalize it away as mere fiction, but kids may not be able to.

Now you tell me why it should exist, I'll wait. Save your breath if you're going to suggest we'll end up in 1984 if we ban loli, I'm not for limited government.

If most kiwis had their way, all porn, even softcore shit, would be illegal.

Based and kiwi pilled

 

[Lightsaber Dildo]

https://kiwifarms.st/threads/texas-man-sentenced-to-40-years-for-running-website-of-stories-about-raping-murdering-children.182901/

You got neg-rated for your retarded first post in that thread and then you backpedaled to get approval in your following posts, I don't know what you expect to convince me of. That guy got away with writing gross shit for almost 30 years, is one of like a dozen people prosecuted for obscenity on its own, and that's your proof obscenity laws work?

"Is that why he won all of these awards, and is a famous artist?"

The day I see a lolicon artist become mainstream and win a bunch of awards will be the day.

It doesn't even matter if this protects kids or not, it should be banned because it's obscene. That's a good enough reason.

No, it isn't. You know "obscene" has an eerily similar definition to "offensive", right? You are completely against freedom of expression if you believe "obscenity" is always a valid excuse for censorship en-masse. Your argument fundamentally boils down to "this thing is gross and icky so it should be banned". There is a greater argument for banning firearms, drugs, alcohol, and black people than there is for banning any kind of porn. Your entire viewpoint is emotional and irrational and cannot be backed up by any factual information. And you know what rightoid conservatard talking head Ben Shapiro says. Facts don't care about your feelings!

Based and kiwi pilled

You should hang out with third-wave feminists, they have the same mindset as you. You know, wanting things banned just because they don't like them, no other reason. This mindset is so typical of aging white women, if someone told me you were a troon I'd probably believe it.