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The world would be a little more based then otherwise would be.
Alternate History - Thing happened in real life, so what if thing NOT happened?
- Thread starter Karakhalkin-Gol
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Karakhalkin-Gol
kiwifarms.net
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if the western empire survives and holds its territory then it majorly changes a lot of history but it depends when you diverge.
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I bring gifts. Use these to help make alt history maps. they don't match exactly, so anything you paste from the second image will need to be moved left a few pixels. Also FYI the border thickness of the first image is about 3.5 pixels.
Last edited:
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Modern European capitalism looks very different.
Here's an idea, Carthage triumphant. Hannibal gets the reinforcements he needs and Rome's italian allies break with the eternal city. Giving him sufficient manpower to encircle the city. Rome is broken after a two-year siege.
Hannibal Barca returns to Carthage a hero, and purges the Oligarchs who sabotaged his campaign.
Carthaginian hegemony in the Western Mediterranean. The Greek states remain independent, the Carthaginians more thoroughly colonize Sicily and establish outposts in Italy itself, the Balkans and eastern Mediterranean remain outside their sphere of influence.
How long would a Carthaginian hegemony last? The Carthaginians didn't conquer as the Romans did, and Rome itself would re emerge I think unless Hannibal destroyed the city, and political infighting in Carthage itself could be disastrous for any Punic empire.
Here's an idea, Carthage triumphant. Hannibal gets the reinforcements he needs and Rome's italian allies break with the eternal city. Giving him sufficient manpower to encircle the city. Rome is broken after a two-year siege.
Hannibal Barca returns to Carthage a hero, and purges the Oligarchs who sabotaged his campaign.
Carthaginian hegemony in the Western Mediterranean. The Greek states remain independent, the Carthaginians more thoroughly colonize Sicily and establish outposts in Italy itself, the Balkans and eastern Mediterranean remain outside their sphere of influence.
How long would a Carthaginian hegemony last? The Carthaginians didn't conquer as the Romans did, and Rome itself would re emerge I think unless Hannibal destroyed the city, and political infighting in Carthage itself could be disastrous for any Punic empire.
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- Dec 12, 2022
I suspect Carthage would hit some sort of a grave stumbling block before it rose to a full on Imperial power akin to Rome, although I would have to imagine that it would also survive longer as the plutocratic republic it was than see the system break down as Rome did.
Carthage's biggest issue following a victory over Rome would be the tendency for the Carthaginians to crucify generals who fucked up. With their army becoming increasingly mercenary-led, this seems like the perfect storm for a large-scale mutiny (Carthage did suffer from mutinies OTL) that would lead to the loss of territory. This could create a spiraling effect where Carthage loses large chunks of its mercantile empire and is reduced down to a smaller core following a period of decline.
Also, and this is a little bit out there, but Carthage's tendency to engage in ritualistic child sacrifice probably wouldn't help. It isn't quite an idea as firm as other effects, but I suspect the sociological effect of such traditions would probably ruin Carthage in the long term. All civilizations with similar practice also declined drastically and such rituals could even exacerbate the general cultural decline that would come with a sudden shrinkage of the mercantile empire following an aforementioned mercenary revolt.
Now, as an aside, I said I thought we should get timelines going to prove the viability of a alt-history discussion area, and damnit I don't have much time to write as I had hoped. But, I finished the first section of my timeline I previously posted the basic outline of. I hope you all enjoy.
“...And now I must be about my work.”
–Closing line of President Huey Long’s inaugural address
It is the September of 1935, and the State of Louisiana is tottering on the brink of crisis. The wealthy elite of the impoverished state, seethe at the reforms pressed upon them by Senator Huey Long and his dictatorial control of the state. Across America, Long is a rising star. A champion of the poor with an ambitious program for reform, and continually oppositional to the monied classes of the United States, Long has attracted powerful enemies. Even the President himself, Franklin Roosevelt, can be counted among that throng.
Already, open insurrection has risen against Long and his allies in the Louisiana government. The Square Deal Association brazenly seized control of a Parish courthouse in January, and State Congressmen have been caught plotting his assassination. This has not stopped Long however. Flanked by his “Cossacks,” his private bodyguards, the Kingfish continued to visit Baton Rouge where his puppet governor Oscar K. Allen ruled in his stead.
On the 8th, a special session of the Louisiana Congress is held. Among the items on the agenda is the removal of one of Long’s political opponents, Judge Benjamin Pavy, via gerrymandering. After the bill passes, late into the evening, Long exits the Capitol. Waiting for him is Carl Weiss, Pavy’s son in law. Weiss draws a revolver, points, and shoots a single shot. Long is struck in the side before he flees the scene. His Cossacks gun down Weiss, hitting him with more than sixty shots.
Long is taken to Our Lady of the Lake Hospital. Thankfully for Long, construction on the highways into Baton Rouge has been delayed by unfortunate circumstances and the state’s best surgeons make it to the hospital in time to save the Senator. [1] Across Louisiana — and the whole of America — there is jubilation and a gnashing of teeth.
But nowhere is there greater anger than in the White House. President Franklin Roosevelt, collaborating with a number of Wall Street tycoons, had orchestrated the attempted assassination of Long. [2] Investigations over the winter of 1935-36 would uncover this fact, leading to the greatest scandal yet seen in American politics. Long, greatly shocked, would nevertheless capitalize on this event. Even as Roosevelt was removed from office and John Garner became President, Long held rallies proclaiming that he would not stop fighting until all the crooks were ousted.
The Democratic National Convention in 1936 would prove to be a true spectacle. Garner, who had emerged from the shadow of Roosevelt unstained due to his aggressive support for the prosecution of those behind the conspiracy to assassinate Long, would be the frontrunner for the Democratic establishment. Long, however, was undeterred. By hook and crook Long became the Democratic nominee for President, with Burton K. Wheeler, a compromise candidate, serving as his VP.
Long’s nomination provoked a mass-revolt among the more conservative elements of the Democratic Party. Forming a new party, the “Liberty Party,” they would rally behind President Garner. The Republican Party briefly tried to form a coalition with the Liberty Party, however said plans initially collapsed as both parties underestimated the American people’s support for Long.
The elections of 1936 were tense. Although far and away better than 1860, or the subsequent 1940 election, they were noticeably chaotic. Violence was surprisingly common, especially in the midwest and the south, but the results trickled in nevertheless and the turnout was higher than it had been in decades. Long had won, with 45.4% of the vote and 294 electoral votes. Far from a true mandate to govern, but the Democratic Party retained control of Congress and that would be enough for Long.
Upon assuming office, Long’s claim he could “frighten or buy ninety-nine out of every one hundred men” proved accurate almost to the man. Within his first month in office, Congress would pass four dozen laws that upended the political status quo. Some of the most prominent were the “Banking Reform Act,” first of those passed, which nationalized all banks within the United States and placed them under public administration; the “Education Funds Act” levied special taxes on the major corporations to expand the schooling system, and the “Justice Act” which instituted psychological evaluations to criminals with the hopes of decreasing crime.
President Long’s policies saw much pushback, which only prompted Long to dynamite his opposition. Filibustering in the Senate, commonly used against Long, was abolished. Dissent in the Democratic Party was countered by intimidation and bribery. When the Supreme Court struck down the Banking Reform Act, Long simply ignored them, enforcing the Act regardless. And to keep any further meddling by the Court, Long would successfully oversee the passing of a law which packed the Supreme Court with loyal judges. In response to Long’s actions with the Supreme Court, he would be impeached but ultimately was easily able to keep his office.
Opposition to Long increasingly became ineffectual within the Federal government as offices were filled with loyalists, and the Longist political machine quickly imitated its Louisiana policies on the national level. But outside of the government, opposition to Long swelled rapidly. The Ku Klux Klan, which had been on a dramatic decline, suddenly saw membership expand as anti-Longists joined in droves. In the midwest, the Black Legion terror organization also grew rapidly while the less violent protest organization, the newly-founded American Protection Society, absorbed the less radical anti-Longists. Other militant organizations also grew during this time, with the socialist “Anti-Fascist League” and the fascist Silver Legion gaining tens of thousands of members.
The most troublesome opposition to Long however came not in the form of civilian groups, or terror organizations, but in the various governments of the individual states. Shortly after the passing of the Banking Reform Act, the “Pacific States Committee,” consisting of the Governors of Oregon, California, Nevada, and Montana, would proclaim their refusal to cooperate with Long’s policies. A similar group, the Constitutional Governance Committee, would declare their opposition in the American south, albeit largely over Long’s policies being applied equally between white and black populations.
On the foreign front, Long’s government was less controversial. Long seriously strengthened the Neutrality Acts, which prevented guns from being sold to China when the Second Sino-Japanese War broke out. The strengthening of the Neutrality Acts also dramatically decreased the sale of weapons to foreign nations, which hindered rearmament programs in England and France.
By 1938, Long had successfully rammed through much of his planned Share the Wealth program. However, with opposition from the governments of the individual states or the growing opposition groups – now numbering around three million – Long’s policies broadly failed to be put into practice. To counter this, Long began to exercise his authority under the Insurrection Act to enforce his policies, a decision which only led to protests and violence across much of the United States. This policy succeeded largely through the extremely high popular support Long possessed among the poor, farmer, and labor classes.
On May 14th, the Black Legion seized control of the town of Highland Park in Michigan, lynching the pro-Long mayor. Under direction of Long, the army would suppress the event and begin to assault the Black Legion in Michigan. In response, the Legion rose up en masse across the Midwest, carrying out a serious bombing campaign. This period, the Black Summer, was effectively a small civil war as towns were occupied by Legion troops, and bombing campaigns killed an estimated three thousand people. Further protests by other organizations only pushed the government further, and the crisis seemed almost on the verge of spiraling outwards into an open conflict with the Mutiny of the 126th Infantry Regiment against Federal authorities on June 14th.
The situation remained critical for the rest of June. On July 4th, Long would give a speech to a massive crowd of supporters. For all his faults and the ongoing instability, Long remained as popular as ever with the lower classes of America. Mass-outrage leaned against the upper classes who were blamed for the ongoing violence. Nevertheless, this did not prevent Anti-Fascist League member Ferro Mazzanti from shooting Long during the rally. Unlike the attempt less than two years prior, Mazzanti struck Long in the head, sending pieces of brain, bone, and viscera across the stage.
Burton Wheeler, unexpectedly, ascended to the Presidency. The second Vice-President in two years to do so. Wheeler, despite his status as a member of the progressive block of the pre-split Democratic party, was not a diehard Longist. As such Wheeler would almost immediately negotiate with the opposition Governors, coming to terms. Politically unable to repeal the Longist laws, especially in the aftermath of Long’s death, Wheeler agreed instead to simply stop trying to enforce the laws in their states. Along with a few other concessions, this successfully brought enough of the states into line that the hammer of the Wheeler government could come down on the Black Legion.
Wheeler would successfully bring some sense of stability to the United States. Far more politically moderate and unwilling to do the same level of political bullying as Long, Wheeler was a comparative breath of fresh air for anti-Longist groups. For Longists, however, Wheeler’s more moderate approach was seen as a stab-in-the-back. The Share Our Wealth society would isolate itself from Wheeler. While they would remain nominally loyal to the Democratic Party for the moment, the SOW and the newly emerging “Defense of the People Committees,” which would serve as the armed branch of the SOW, would grow increasingly oppositional to Wheeler and his compromising message. Regardless of the calls from his erstwhile supporters, Wheeler’s comparative moderatism solidified the Democratic Party’s support in the 1938 midterm elections.
Despite Wheeler bringing about comparative stability, this did not mean the United States was close to healed. The Black Legion remained at large, with Legion terror tactics killing several dozen through the rest of 1938 and in 1939. The Klan, dramatically revitalized, became the de facto armed wing of the Liberty Party, with armed Klansmen “guarding” polling centers in several southern states, and even making open, armed rallies in front of and inside the State Capitol of Georgia. Across the Great Plains, the fascistic Silver Legion and their political wing, the Christian Party, saw dramatic gains. In Oklahoma, the eccentric former governor William H. Murray would be elected to the Oklahoma House of Representatives on a “fusion” Liberty-Christian ticket which gave the Silver Legion their first representation in any body of American government.
Leftist opposition, while still scattered and confused, had emerged for the first time as a significant force and was not disrupted by Long’s death. The Anti-Fascist League, the first significant militant leftist group in the United States, would come under heavy fire from the FBI; J. Edgar Hoover was restored to his position as FBI chief and given even more resources to attack the League. This anti-Leftist program, given energy by the assassination of Long, would quickly spiral into general prosecution of Socialist, Communist, and Anarchists in the United States. A prosecution campaign that would spiral out of control quickly with Hoover being directed to attack political opponents of Wheeler as well.
Within a year, a strange quiet would begin to settle across the United States. Half of the nation was effectively independent. The expanded FBI launched attacks not just on the radical political groups, who remained a virulent and destructive threat, but openly on opposition politicians to the Democratic Party. Even as order slowly began to return to the streets, American liberty was seemingly withering on the vine. All the while the American people still struggled with mass poverty, unemployment, and want.
Shortly before the outbreak of what would become known as the Second World War, Winston Churchill would remark before the British Parliament “...we have seen the loss of two great nations to the twin evils of terror and oppression. It is my greatest fear that the shadow of those two spectres now stalks the halls of Washington today and we can no longer count on the aid of that giant across the Atlantic in the upcoming war…”
[1] Our POD. IOTL they were delayed by highway work. The surgeons also probably bungled his surgery, and he probably could have been saved IOTL without said bungling.
[2] Some conspiracy-minded individuals believe in this IOTL. It is probably not true however.
–Closing line of President Huey Long’s inaugural address
It is the September of 1935, and the State of Louisiana is tottering on the brink of crisis. The wealthy elite of the impoverished state, seethe at the reforms pressed upon them by Senator Huey Long and his dictatorial control of the state. Across America, Long is a rising star. A champion of the poor with an ambitious program for reform, and continually oppositional to the monied classes of the United States, Long has attracted powerful enemies. Even the President himself, Franklin Roosevelt, can be counted among that throng.
Already, open insurrection has risen against Long and his allies in the Louisiana government. The Square Deal Association brazenly seized control of a Parish courthouse in January, and State Congressmen have been caught plotting his assassination. This has not stopped Long however. Flanked by his “Cossacks,” his private bodyguards, the Kingfish continued to visit Baton Rouge where his puppet governor Oscar K. Allen ruled in his stead.
On the 8th, a special session of the Louisiana Congress is held. Among the items on the agenda is the removal of one of Long’s political opponents, Judge Benjamin Pavy, via gerrymandering. After the bill passes, late into the evening, Long exits the Capitol. Waiting for him is Carl Weiss, Pavy’s son in law. Weiss draws a revolver, points, and shoots a single shot. Long is struck in the side before he flees the scene. His Cossacks gun down Weiss, hitting him with more than sixty shots.
Long is taken to Our Lady of the Lake Hospital. Thankfully for Long, construction on the highways into Baton Rouge has been delayed by unfortunate circumstances and the state’s best surgeons make it to the hospital in time to save the Senator. [1] Across Louisiana — and the whole of America — there is jubilation and a gnashing of teeth.
But nowhere is there greater anger than in the White House. President Franklin Roosevelt, collaborating with a number of Wall Street tycoons, had orchestrated the attempted assassination of Long. [2] Investigations over the winter of 1935-36 would uncover this fact, leading to the greatest scandal yet seen in American politics. Long, greatly shocked, would nevertheless capitalize on this event. Even as Roosevelt was removed from office and John Garner became President, Long held rallies proclaiming that he would not stop fighting until all the crooks were ousted.
The Democratic National Convention in 1936 would prove to be a true spectacle. Garner, who had emerged from the shadow of Roosevelt unstained due to his aggressive support for the prosecution of those behind the conspiracy to assassinate Long, would be the frontrunner for the Democratic establishment. Long, however, was undeterred. By hook and crook Long became the Democratic nominee for President, with Burton K. Wheeler, a compromise candidate, serving as his VP.
Long’s nomination provoked a mass-revolt among the more conservative elements of the Democratic Party. Forming a new party, the “Liberty Party,” they would rally behind President Garner. The Republican Party briefly tried to form a coalition with the Liberty Party, however said plans initially collapsed as both parties underestimated the American people’s support for Long.
The elections of 1936 were tense. Although far and away better than 1860, or the subsequent 1940 election, they were noticeably chaotic. Violence was surprisingly common, especially in the midwest and the south, but the results trickled in nevertheless and the turnout was higher than it had been in decades. Long had won, with 45.4% of the vote and 294 electoral votes. Far from a true mandate to govern, but the Democratic Party retained control of Congress and that would be enough for Long.
Upon assuming office, Long’s claim he could “frighten or buy ninety-nine out of every one hundred men” proved accurate almost to the man. Within his first month in office, Congress would pass four dozen laws that upended the political status quo. Some of the most prominent were the “Banking Reform Act,” first of those passed, which nationalized all banks within the United States and placed them under public administration; the “Education Funds Act” levied special taxes on the major corporations to expand the schooling system, and the “Justice Act” which instituted psychological evaluations to criminals with the hopes of decreasing crime.
President Long’s policies saw much pushback, which only prompted Long to dynamite his opposition. Filibustering in the Senate, commonly used against Long, was abolished. Dissent in the Democratic Party was countered by intimidation and bribery. When the Supreme Court struck down the Banking Reform Act, Long simply ignored them, enforcing the Act regardless. And to keep any further meddling by the Court, Long would successfully oversee the passing of a law which packed the Supreme Court with loyal judges. In response to Long’s actions with the Supreme Court, he would be impeached but ultimately was easily able to keep his office.
Opposition to Long increasingly became ineffectual within the Federal government as offices were filled with loyalists, and the Longist political machine quickly imitated its Louisiana policies on the national level. But outside of the government, opposition to Long swelled rapidly. The Ku Klux Klan, which had been on a dramatic decline, suddenly saw membership expand as anti-Longists joined in droves. In the midwest, the Black Legion terror organization also grew rapidly while the less violent protest organization, the newly-founded American Protection Society, absorbed the less radical anti-Longists. Other militant organizations also grew during this time, with the socialist “Anti-Fascist League” and the fascist Silver Legion gaining tens of thousands of members.
The most troublesome opposition to Long however came not in the form of civilian groups, or terror organizations, but in the various governments of the individual states. Shortly after the passing of the Banking Reform Act, the “Pacific States Committee,” consisting of the Governors of Oregon, California, Nevada, and Montana, would proclaim their refusal to cooperate with Long’s policies. A similar group, the Constitutional Governance Committee, would declare their opposition in the American south, albeit largely over Long’s policies being applied equally between white and black populations.
On the foreign front, Long’s government was less controversial. Long seriously strengthened the Neutrality Acts, which prevented guns from being sold to China when the Second Sino-Japanese War broke out. The strengthening of the Neutrality Acts also dramatically decreased the sale of weapons to foreign nations, which hindered rearmament programs in England and France.
By 1938, Long had successfully rammed through much of his planned Share the Wealth program. However, with opposition from the governments of the individual states or the growing opposition groups – now numbering around three million – Long’s policies broadly failed to be put into practice. To counter this, Long began to exercise his authority under the Insurrection Act to enforce his policies, a decision which only led to protests and violence across much of the United States. This policy succeeded largely through the extremely high popular support Long possessed among the poor, farmer, and labor classes.
On May 14th, the Black Legion seized control of the town of Highland Park in Michigan, lynching the pro-Long mayor. Under direction of Long, the army would suppress the event and begin to assault the Black Legion in Michigan. In response, the Legion rose up en masse across the Midwest, carrying out a serious bombing campaign. This period, the Black Summer, was effectively a small civil war as towns were occupied by Legion troops, and bombing campaigns killed an estimated three thousand people. Further protests by other organizations only pushed the government further, and the crisis seemed almost on the verge of spiraling outwards into an open conflict with the Mutiny of the 126th Infantry Regiment against Federal authorities on June 14th.
The situation remained critical for the rest of June. On July 4th, Long would give a speech to a massive crowd of supporters. For all his faults and the ongoing instability, Long remained as popular as ever with the lower classes of America. Mass-outrage leaned against the upper classes who were blamed for the ongoing violence. Nevertheless, this did not prevent Anti-Fascist League member Ferro Mazzanti from shooting Long during the rally. Unlike the attempt less than two years prior, Mazzanti struck Long in the head, sending pieces of brain, bone, and viscera across the stage.
Burton Wheeler, unexpectedly, ascended to the Presidency. The second Vice-President in two years to do so. Wheeler, despite his status as a member of the progressive block of the pre-split Democratic party, was not a diehard Longist. As such Wheeler would almost immediately negotiate with the opposition Governors, coming to terms. Politically unable to repeal the Longist laws, especially in the aftermath of Long’s death, Wheeler agreed instead to simply stop trying to enforce the laws in their states. Along with a few other concessions, this successfully brought enough of the states into line that the hammer of the Wheeler government could come down on the Black Legion.
Wheeler would successfully bring some sense of stability to the United States. Far more politically moderate and unwilling to do the same level of political bullying as Long, Wheeler was a comparative breath of fresh air for anti-Longist groups. For Longists, however, Wheeler’s more moderate approach was seen as a stab-in-the-back. The Share Our Wealth society would isolate itself from Wheeler. While they would remain nominally loyal to the Democratic Party for the moment, the SOW and the newly emerging “Defense of the People Committees,” which would serve as the armed branch of the SOW, would grow increasingly oppositional to Wheeler and his compromising message. Regardless of the calls from his erstwhile supporters, Wheeler’s comparative moderatism solidified the Democratic Party’s support in the 1938 midterm elections.
Despite Wheeler bringing about comparative stability, this did not mean the United States was close to healed. The Black Legion remained at large, with Legion terror tactics killing several dozen through the rest of 1938 and in 1939. The Klan, dramatically revitalized, became the de facto armed wing of the Liberty Party, with armed Klansmen “guarding” polling centers in several southern states, and even making open, armed rallies in front of and inside the State Capitol of Georgia. Across the Great Plains, the fascistic Silver Legion and their political wing, the Christian Party, saw dramatic gains. In Oklahoma, the eccentric former governor William H. Murray would be elected to the Oklahoma House of Representatives on a “fusion” Liberty-Christian ticket which gave the Silver Legion their first representation in any body of American government.
Leftist opposition, while still scattered and confused, had emerged for the first time as a significant force and was not disrupted by Long’s death. The Anti-Fascist League, the first significant militant leftist group in the United States, would come under heavy fire from the FBI; J. Edgar Hoover was restored to his position as FBI chief and given even more resources to attack the League. This anti-Leftist program, given energy by the assassination of Long, would quickly spiral into general prosecution of Socialist, Communist, and Anarchists in the United States. A prosecution campaign that would spiral out of control quickly with Hoover being directed to attack political opponents of Wheeler as well.
Within a year, a strange quiet would begin to settle across the United States. Half of the nation was effectively independent. The expanded FBI launched attacks not just on the radical political groups, who remained a virulent and destructive threat, but openly on opposition politicians to the Democratic Party. Even as order slowly began to return to the streets, American liberty was seemingly withering on the vine. All the while the American people still struggled with mass poverty, unemployment, and want.
Shortly before the outbreak of what would become known as the Second World War, Winston Churchill would remark before the British Parliament “...we have seen the loss of two great nations to the twin evils of terror and oppression. It is my greatest fear that the shadow of those two spectres now stalks the halls of Washington today and we can no longer count on the aid of that giant across the Atlantic in the upcoming war…”
[1] Our POD. IOTL they were delayed by highway work. The surgeons also probably bungled his surgery, and he probably could have been saved IOTL without said bungling.
[2] Some conspiracy-minded individuals believe in this IOTL. It is probably not true however.
July 14th, 1937, Sparks, Oklahoma
Monroe Bishop sat on the curb, cursing himself, Mr. Meyer, and everyone else who came to his mind. The hot Oklahoma sun beat down upon his sweat-lined brow, and he cursed once again, damning the clear blue sky above. It was simply not his day. It had never been Monroe’s day, and the seventeen year old boiled with anger at the injustice of his life. Life as the son of a dirt-poor sharecropper couldn’t be expected to be anything but hard, but for the young Oklahoman it had been far worse than expected. The Dust Bowl, the general collapse of the American agricultural market, and finally the Great Depression had stolen Monroe’s future.
The oldest of the Bishop children, Monroe was set to be the first Bishop to finish his schooling. But the Depression had meant that he was forced to drop out of school and go to work at the tender age of nine; a child operating a jackhammer on a construction site until his hands bled. And now that construction job was gone thanks to Mr. Meyer. There weren’t any other opportunities in Sparks for a barely literate unskilled laborer, which had led Monroe to the curb. He supposed he should go home, but how could he face his parents who relied on his wages to feed the rest of his siblings?
Monroe wondered if he should just hop on the next train and ride it out of Sparks. At least it would be one less mouth to feed. But somehow he knew that he simply couldn’t do it. There would be something that he could do to earn his keep.
But the anger still hadn’t subsided in his chest, nor had the frustration. He knew he should go back, beg Mr. Meyer to forgive him, but his mind was filled with images of himself thrashing his former boss. His temper had always been too much.
He staggered to his feet, about to turn back towards the construction site when something caught his eye across the street. On the side of Sparks’ general store was a faded poster. Left over from the election, the poster was ragged and well worn but it still screamed VOTE HUEY LONG in large block letters underneath a portrait of Long. Monroe stamped his feet. Huey Long! That bastard had been behind the new law, the one which changed the pay-scale and gave Mr. Meyer the excuse to fire him! Furious and now cursing the President, Monroe stormed across the street and with a swift motion ripped the poster to the ground.
“Now what did you do that for, son?” A voice asked from his right.
Monroe spun on his feet, sputtering an apology to Mr. Oglethorpe, the owner of the store. However it was not Mr. Oglethorpe who stood there, but a man unfamiliar to him. Silver-haired and goateed, with round spectacles smoothing out his face; all finished off by a strange sort of suit with a large red L on the breast, Monroe found the stranger quite odd.
The stranger waved his hand dismissively. “No need to worry, It is no bother to me to see a poster with his face on it torn down.” He said. “I am no fan of the bastard either. But I do find it strange for someone to be tearing it down now, I doubt it would do much good now.”
“I was just mad, sir. I’ve lost my work, and it’s all because of that new law the President rustled up.”
The stranger looked at Monroe curiously for a moment before rummaging through his pocket. “Look here son, take this dollar. I’m going to go sit down on that bench over there, you go into the store, buy me two Cokes, and come sit down with me.” He handed over a dollar bill to the surprised Monroe before wandering off without a glance back.
Monroe did as he was asked, and after handing one of the drinks over, the stranger gestured at him. “Drink with me. And keep the change, I am not worried about cash.” Monroe stood awkwardly for a moment, and the stranger continued. “What are you gawking for? Sit down, I have found myself in the mood to talk for a bit and I think you will do quite well for company. What do you call yourself, son?”
“Monroe. Monroe Bishop.”
“Bishop, eh? You have a good name, son.” The stranger said before extending his hand. “Now then Mr. Bishop, you said that you lost your job thanks to a law passed by our ‘dear’ President. How so?”
Monroe sheepishly glanced down at his Coke. “Ah, that was just my temper, sir. I got too heated too much at work. Mr. Meyer blamed his letting me go on this new law that means he gots to pay his negro workers the same as us white men. But I know it was actually because I’ve picked fights.”
The stranger seemed to mull this over and responded with a strange question. “Mr. Meyer, you say? Is he perhaps a Jew?”
“I think he is.” Monroe said, uncertainly. “Some of the fellows have said he was.”
At that, the stranger flew into a fit of agitation. “Damnation! Mr. Bishop, can you not see this is no fault of your own? The Jew, those insipid little kike-vipers, are to blame; not just for your personal loss of work, but for the Depression itself, for Huey Long, for all the woes of this nation. It is a truth known since even the days of Benjamin Franklin that the kike seeks to destroy all hardworking Christian folk. Even the Jews with little standing such as your Mr. Meyer cannot help themselves, they will throw a good Christian such as yourself on the street and replace him with half-beast niggers!”
Monroe found himself wrapped up by the stranger’s tirade. He spoke quite well, at least from Monroe’s perspective. Nevertheless, Monroe wasn’t entirely convinced. “Sir, meaning no disrespect, but I don’t see how the Jews could be to blame for the Depression. Or be as bad as you say they are.”
“Mr. Bishop, I take no offense. Sparks here is not a big town, Mr. Bishop, you have not lived around Jews before and the only negroes you would have seen are brought here on the train for work; they too do not live here. But I have lived in New York and–” At this, the stranger seemed awfully smug “–even worked in Hollywood. I have had first hand encounters with the Jew, Negro, and Papist, the various peoples who have dark souls and stand in opposition to good, honest, peaceful Christian living.”
With a wave of a hand, the stranger’s whole attitude seemed to change. “But enough of that, Mr. Bishop. I am not here today to make speeches, Rather the next train is just running late. But I believe it was divine providence that I met you here today. How would you like a job?”
Monroe was shocked. “I would, sir, but…”
“But what? I can guarantee you work, Mr. Bishop. And good paying work too. Far better than whatever this kike was giving you, that is for sure.” The stranger pulled out a notebook and swiftly jotted down an address on it. “I will meet you here next monday at four in the afternoon. Do not be late! And here.” The stranger handed over five crisp, clean dollar bills. “This will cover the fare to Tulsa, and hopefully a good meal when you get there. Wear your best clothes if you can, you will want to be as presentable as you can muster.”
The younger man goggled at the stranger. “Thank you very kindly, sir. I think I will meet you.”
The stranger laughed. “That’s a good fellow! As I said, I think it was the hand of God which brought us together today, Mr. Bishop. I expect to see you again real soon.” And, with that, the stranger shook Monroe’s hand, before giving Monroe a small booklet. “For your education on the matters we discussed.” The stranger said before he began to walk off.
“Ah, sir, just real quick.”
The stranger turned back, nodding. “Yes?”
“I never caught your name and I figure that if I’ll be workin’ for you, I should know that.”
The stranger laughed again. “Forgive me, Mr. Bishop, for my appalling manners. My name is William Pelley.” And with that, the stranger was gone, and Monroe was left alone once again. But now, his angry thoughts were accompanied by the words of a small booklet.
Monroe Bishop sat on the curb, cursing himself, Mr. Meyer, and everyone else who came to his mind. The hot Oklahoma sun beat down upon his sweat-lined brow, and he cursed once again, damning the clear blue sky above. It was simply not his day. It had never been Monroe’s day, and the seventeen year old boiled with anger at the injustice of his life. Life as the son of a dirt-poor sharecropper couldn’t be expected to be anything but hard, but for the young Oklahoman it had been far worse than expected. The Dust Bowl, the general collapse of the American agricultural market, and finally the Great Depression had stolen Monroe’s future.
The oldest of the Bishop children, Monroe was set to be the first Bishop to finish his schooling. But the Depression had meant that he was forced to drop out of school and go to work at the tender age of nine; a child operating a jackhammer on a construction site until his hands bled. And now that construction job was gone thanks to Mr. Meyer. There weren’t any other opportunities in Sparks for a barely literate unskilled laborer, which had led Monroe to the curb. He supposed he should go home, but how could he face his parents who relied on his wages to feed the rest of his siblings?
Monroe wondered if he should just hop on the next train and ride it out of Sparks. At least it would be one less mouth to feed. But somehow he knew that he simply couldn’t do it. There would be something that he could do to earn his keep.
But the anger still hadn’t subsided in his chest, nor had the frustration. He knew he should go back, beg Mr. Meyer to forgive him, but his mind was filled with images of himself thrashing his former boss. His temper had always been too much.
He staggered to his feet, about to turn back towards the construction site when something caught his eye across the street. On the side of Sparks’ general store was a faded poster. Left over from the election, the poster was ragged and well worn but it still screamed VOTE HUEY LONG in large block letters underneath a portrait of Long. Monroe stamped his feet. Huey Long! That bastard had been behind the new law, the one which changed the pay-scale and gave Mr. Meyer the excuse to fire him! Furious and now cursing the President, Monroe stormed across the street and with a swift motion ripped the poster to the ground.
“Now what did you do that for, son?” A voice asked from his right.
Monroe spun on his feet, sputtering an apology to Mr. Oglethorpe, the owner of the store. However it was not Mr. Oglethorpe who stood there, but a man unfamiliar to him. Silver-haired and goateed, with round spectacles smoothing out his face; all finished off by a strange sort of suit with a large red L on the breast, Monroe found the stranger quite odd.
The stranger waved his hand dismissively. “No need to worry, It is no bother to me to see a poster with his face on it torn down.” He said. “I am no fan of the bastard either. But I do find it strange for someone to be tearing it down now, I doubt it would do much good now.”
“I was just mad, sir. I’ve lost my work, and it’s all because of that new law the President rustled up.”
The stranger looked at Monroe curiously for a moment before rummaging through his pocket. “Look here son, take this dollar. I’m going to go sit down on that bench over there, you go into the store, buy me two Cokes, and come sit down with me.” He handed over a dollar bill to the surprised Monroe before wandering off without a glance back.
Monroe did as he was asked, and after handing one of the drinks over, the stranger gestured at him. “Drink with me. And keep the change, I am not worried about cash.” Monroe stood awkwardly for a moment, and the stranger continued. “What are you gawking for? Sit down, I have found myself in the mood to talk for a bit and I think you will do quite well for company. What do you call yourself, son?”
“Monroe. Monroe Bishop.”
“Bishop, eh? You have a good name, son.” The stranger said before extending his hand. “Now then Mr. Bishop, you said that you lost your job thanks to a law passed by our ‘dear’ President. How so?”
Monroe sheepishly glanced down at his Coke. “Ah, that was just my temper, sir. I got too heated too much at work. Mr. Meyer blamed his letting me go on this new law that means he gots to pay his negro workers the same as us white men. But I know it was actually because I’ve picked fights.”
The stranger seemed to mull this over and responded with a strange question. “Mr. Meyer, you say? Is he perhaps a Jew?”
“I think he is.” Monroe said, uncertainly. “Some of the fellows have said he was.”
At that, the stranger flew into a fit of agitation. “Damnation! Mr. Bishop, can you not see this is no fault of your own? The Jew, those insipid little kike-vipers, are to blame; not just for your personal loss of work, but for the Depression itself, for Huey Long, for all the woes of this nation. It is a truth known since even the days of Benjamin Franklin that the kike seeks to destroy all hardworking Christian folk. Even the Jews with little standing such as your Mr. Meyer cannot help themselves, they will throw a good Christian such as yourself on the street and replace him with half-beast niggers!”
Monroe found himself wrapped up by the stranger’s tirade. He spoke quite well, at least from Monroe’s perspective. Nevertheless, Monroe wasn’t entirely convinced. “Sir, meaning no disrespect, but I don’t see how the Jews could be to blame for the Depression. Or be as bad as you say they are.”
“Mr. Bishop, I take no offense. Sparks here is not a big town, Mr. Bishop, you have not lived around Jews before and the only negroes you would have seen are brought here on the train for work; they too do not live here. But I have lived in New York and–” At this, the stranger seemed awfully smug “–even worked in Hollywood. I have had first hand encounters with the Jew, Negro, and Papist, the various peoples who have dark souls and stand in opposition to good, honest, peaceful Christian living.”
With a wave of a hand, the stranger’s whole attitude seemed to change. “But enough of that, Mr. Bishop. I am not here today to make speeches, Rather the next train is just running late. But I believe it was divine providence that I met you here today. How would you like a job?”
Monroe was shocked. “I would, sir, but…”
“But what? I can guarantee you work, Mr. Bishop. And good paying work too. Far better than whatever this kike was giving you, that is for sure.” The stranger pulled out a notebook and swiftly jotted down an address on it. “I will meet you here next monday at four in the afternoon. Do not be late! And here.” The stranger handed over five crisp, clean dollar bills. “This will cover the fare to Tulsa, and hopefully a good meal when you get there. Wear your best clothes if you can, you will want to be as presentable as you can muster.”
The younger man goggled at the stranger. “Thank you very kindly, sir. I think I will meet you.”
The stranger laughed. “That’s a good fellow! As I said, I think it was the hand of God which brought us together today, Mr. Bishop. I expect to see you again real soon.” And, with that, the stranger shook Monroe’s hand, before giving Monroe a small booklet. “For your education on the matters we discussed.” The stranger said before he began to walk off.
“Ah, sir, just real quick.”
The stranger turned back, nodding. “Yes?”
“I never caught your name and I figure that if I’ll be workin’ for you, I should know that.”
The stranger laughed again. “Forgive me, Mr. Bishop, for my appalling manners. My name is William Pelley.” And with that, the stranger was gone, and Monroe was left alone once again. But now, his angry thoughts were accompanied by the words of a small booklet.
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2019
One of the few good Reddit moments I remember was a AH where the Able Archer exercise in 1983 kicks off a nuclear war. Difference with a lot of scenarios like this is that the Northern Hemisphere gets obliterated, but the South is unaffected except for a site or two in Australia. Guy who created it called it after a Redgum song, It'll be Alright in the Long Run.
Basically, the world is now split into a pact of Latin American Condor-era juntas, 1980's Australia, and Apartheid South Africa. I thought it was interesting because it's one of the few Alt-Histories that doesn't nuke the world and say "It's all fucked", and South Africa isn't just your average retard interpretation of "Muh evil doo-doo head Apartheid raycissts." The world is basically frozen in the 1980's, so there's plenty of lore to build on. Also for once it's not an American-centric Post-Apocalypse scenario.
Archive of the Reddit thread I found it in. I think it's a really neat idea.
Basically, the world is now split into a pact of Latin American Condor-era juntas, 1980's Australia, and Apartheid South Africa. I thought it was interesting because it's one of the few Alt-Histories that doesn't nuke the world and say "It's all fucked", and South Africa isn't just your average retard interpretation of "Muh evil doo-doo head Apartheid raycissts." The world is basically frozen in the 1980's, so there's plenty of lore to build on. Also for once it's not an American-centric Post-Apocalypse scenario.
Archive of the Reddit thread I found it in. I think it's a really neat idea.
PS1gamenwatch
kiwifarms.net
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2015
Minor one since it is Wrestlemania around the corner, if Shawn Stasiak didn't appear in a radio show prior to Mania X7, how would the WCW stars' Mania appearnace turn out?
- Joined
- Nov 22, 2020
What if Abu Bakr failed to force Islam on the tribe that tried to stop being islamic after Mohammed death?
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2022
It's possible, if not likely, that the Arabs would return back to a period of squabbling tribes and descend into chaos. However, 4 (IIRC) other Arabs claimed to be prophets of God during this period. It is possible that we could have ended up with a very divergent form of Islam where there are two prophets, Mohammad and someone else. Possibly even more could emerge, leading to this *Islam becoming something akin to Mormonism, with a bunch of prophets each succeeding the other.
- Joined
- May 14, 2019
Two things
One is that I have thought some about The Atlantropa Articles and Cody's general Atlantropa idea, and I get why he did it the way he did and his book (that was mostly ghostwritten) had interesting concepts that went beyond just alternate history schlock, but I think that it is way more plausible as a socialist utopian Western Europ project.
For those not knowing, Atlantropa was a concept by some socialist Eurotrash douche to dam up the Straits of Gibraltar to make all the electricity in the world to feed all of Europe and world peace because reasons. It was a hare-brained thought experiment with no value, much like those retarded Dyson spheres everybody likes to jerk off in science fiction (as if anyone would ever need that much electricity). What some people realized was that if the Mediterranean was cut off, it would (if not actively fed from the Suez Canal, which I don't recall how Cody rationalizes that since the Suez existed long before this concept) naturally dry up and leave behind a hot salty hellscape, ruining whoever was stupid enough to do it. Actually, for that matter, I don't recall how the evaporation is supposed to work given that the hydrodam would imply water running through it too. Maybe the whole thing wasn't that thought out to begin with.
The Nazis, say what you will about them, had a strong environmentalist streak and I don't imagine them being that retarded or malicious. But you know who is? COMMUNISTS. They do that shit all the time, just look at the Aral Sea. So thematically and in terms of realism it is more appropriate if it was a socialist Esperanto proto-EU faggot League of Nations project (the people who came up with the idea and who would be most likely to shoot themselves in the foot doing something like that).
Separate from that, it's very implausible from a realism standpoint but I've mulled over the idea of if the most controversial cities and canals all belonged to neutral international government as a way of trying to keep trade flowing unrestricted and keep some sort of peace. Candidates for it would include Jerusalem, Suez, Panama, Gibraltar, Singapore, Constantinople, Rome, Shanghai, Hong Kong and Macau, Mecca and Medina, the Shanghai part being in a pre-PRC setting. In a world that's rolled even further back NYC might fit. I imagined the setting as something like a League of Nations dystopia-that-looks-like-a-utopia in which progressives and proto-globalists (again, same Esperanto type crowd) took control.
Edit: NYC had a secession proposal (from the mayor, it didn't gain traction) during the Civil War due to its status as a major cotton entrepot and center of the Democratic Party. I don't think anyone has really explored this but I am interested in Confederate victory settings (which so often have Deseret or stupid shit like California existing) with NYC as a bizarre extra state of the Confederacy or just as a close ally.
One is that I have thought some about The Atlantropa Articles and Cody's general Atlantropa idea, and I get why he did it the way he did and his book (that was mostly ghostwritten) had interesting concepts that went beyond just alternate history schlock, but I think that it is way more plausible as a socialist utopian Western Europ project.
For those not knowing, Atlantropa was a concept by some socialist Eurotrash douche to dam up the Straits of Gibraltar to make all the electricity in the world to feed all of Europe and world peace because reasons. It was a hare-brained thought experiment with no value, much like those retarded Dyson spheres everybody likes to jerk off in science fiction (as if anyone would ever need that much electricity). What some people realized was that if the Mediterranean was cut off, it would (if not actively fed from the Suez Canal, which I don't recall how Cody rationalizes that since the Suez existed long before this concept) naturally dry up and leave behind a hot salty hellscape, ruining whoever was stupid enough to do it. Actually, for that matter, I don't recall how the evaporation is supposed to work given that the hydrodam would imply water running through it too. Maybe the whole thing wasn't that thought out to begin with.
The Nazis, say what you will about them, had a strong environmentalist streak and I don't imagine them being that retarded or malicious. But you know who is? COMMUNISTS. They do that shit all the time, just look at the Aral Sea. So thematically and in terms of realism it is more appropriate if it was a socialist Esperanto proto-EU faggot League of Nations project (the people who came up with the idea and who would be most likely to shoot themselves in the foot doing something like that).
Separate from that, it's very implausible from a realism standpoint but I've mulled over the idea of if the most controversial cities and canals all belonged to neutral international government as a way of trying to keep trade flowing unrestricted and keep some sort of peace. Candidates for it would include Jerusalem, Suez, Panama, Gibraltar, Singapore, Constantinople, Rome, Shanghai, Hong Kong and Macau, Mecca and Medina, the Shanghai part being in a pre-PRC setting. In a world that's rolled even further back NYC might fit. I imagined the setting as something like a League of Nations dystopia-that-looks-like-a-utopia in which progressives and proto-globalists (again, same Esperanto type crowd) took control.
Edit: NYC had a secession proposal (from the mayor, it didn't gain traction) during the Civil War due to its status as a major cotton entrepot and center of the Democratic Party. I don't think anyone has really explored this but I am interested in Confederate victory settings (which so often have Deseret or stupid shit like California existing) with NYC as a bizarre extra state of the Confederacy or just as a close ally.
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- Joined
- Dec 12, 2022
@Ughubughughughughughghlug
Atlantropa wasn't intended to drain the entire Mediterranean Sea, just some of it; the exact amount varies but it seems to have been enough that Sicily and Italy would be united into a single mass and most of the Adriatic disappeared. Italy, most of all, seems to have suffered the consequences and I wouldn't be surprised if the whole Atlantropa meme was just a way to skullfuck Italy than anything else.
And not only was the Straits of Gibraltar supposed to be dammed, but so were the Sicilian-Tunisian straits, the Dardanelles, and the Suez. This would link Africa to Europe (with Africa intended to be terraformed to be suitable for European settlement, blacks were supposed to be genocided I guess) and allow for the Mediterranean to remain a commercial link regardless of the dams.
The whole think is extremely gay and retarded, and only gets associated with National Socialism because of a few tangentially related autistic Nazis. That being said, I doubt even a genuine WORLD COMMUNIST GANGSTER REVOLUTION would be able to get an Atlantropa project off the ground. The concrete alone is many years of modern day global production, under a socialist regime the process would take far, far too long to get off the ground.
Atlantropa wasn't intended to drain the entire Mediterranean Sea, just some of it; the exact amount varies but it seems to have been enough that Sicily and Italy would be united into a single mass and most of the Adriatic disappeared. Italy, most of all, seems to have suffered the consequences and I wouldn't be surprised if the whole Atlantropa meme was just a way to skullfuck Italy than anything else.
And not only was the Straits of Gibraltar supposed to be dammed, but so were the Sicilian-Tunisian straits, the Dardanelles, and the Suez. This would link Africa to Europe (with Africa intended to be terraformed to be suitable for European settlement, blacks were supposed to be genocided I guess) and allow for the Mediterranean to remain a commercial link regardless of the dams.
The whole think is extremely gay and retarded, and only gets associated with National Socialism because of a few tangentially related autistic Nazis. That being said, I doubt even a genuine WORLD COMMUNIST GANGSTER REVOLUTION would be able to get an Atlantropa project off the ground. The concrete alone is many years of modern day global production, under a socialist regime the process would take far, far too long to get off the ground.
- Joined
- May 14, 2019
From a purely engineering and economic standpoint the project is pie-in-the-sky unrealistic on top of being pointless.
What happens to Mormondom in a Mexican victory or averted war scenario?
Most of the land Mexico lost was empty of Mexicans in the first place, and the Mormons just plopped themselves down in Salt Lake in the middle of a war with no, to my knowledge, consent of the government. They even sent a unit to fight in California, so I'd say they were probably overtly hostile to the Mexicans.
People tend to like having a cliche of Mormon uprisings following Confederate victories, but it seems to me like one of the most plausible scenarios for a successful Mormon state is for them to manage to revolt against the Mexicans before anybody else conquers the land. They probably get Boered not long afterwards, but could potentially have a run as an actual legitimate nation and not just as an unrecognized, informal state, something akin to the situation of Texas, Hawaii, and Vermont.
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2023
What if the Armenian Genocide actually happened?
- Joined
- Apr 13, 2021
What if the Clanners refused the batchall at Tukayyid?
More realistically what if the US army adopted Sharps rifles during the Civil War?
More realistically what if the US army adopted Sharps rifles during the Civil War?
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- Joined
- Aug 11, 2019
What if an alien race invaded and we won? Would we accept the alien innocent civilians among us or we would just genocide the bastards?
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2019
I would really think it would depend on the casualties and who survived. If they killed maybe a couple thousand and the US or Europe was unscathed, probably nothing.
Billions dead and the Chinese or Russkies in charge? Bloodbath.
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2019
Its because I find the aftermath of maybe, like, an action movie with aliens where the good guy saves the day and they are defeated an interesting concept. Thats where the credits roll so I wonder how that would go. Would humanity eventually forgive and assimilate them among us, would we only have revenge in our mind or maybe somewhere in the middle?
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2022
Depends on how many humans died and how similar alien psychology is to our own.
If they feel emotions and communicate them in ways we humans are familiar with then they could paint themselves as regular combatants worthy of being treated with respect (AKA not corralled into a shed and nuked).
However if humanity barely won by the skin of its teeth and billions died then even if the remnants or pretenders to the old government demanded they be spared they probably would be powerless to stop any military units sent after them from wiping them out or surviving civilians from going postal after being allowed into POW camps.
As for them assimilating that is a bit more difficult; can they even speak human languages? How different are their cultural practices to our own? Do they even understand the concept of culture? How attached are they to the leadership caste that may have to be forcibly replaced by the humans?