Russian Special Military Operation in the Ukraine - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

See, when you say this, how does this not follow into speculation?

Formal declarations of war are rigid, so why did Russia choose to declare the invasion as an "SMO"?

What, functionally, is the difference between the two?

A formal declaration of war after 1945 is technically illegal under the UN charter. The only people who perhaps do them anymore are dumb african and middle eastern countries who don't understand international law anyway. But even there its muddy if its an actual declaration of war in many cases. There are also delcarations of war now by states against non-state entities (see Israel declaring war on Hamas) that are meaningless under international law.

There are often things in contracts, insurance policies and other commerical documents that are triggered by an actual declared war which is another reason not to do them.

The Special Military Operation has been justified by (a) A claim to collective self-defense under the UN charter. Russia recognizes the two donbas republics as independent states. It claims it has a right to help them defend themselves against Ukraine. (b) a Claim to a right to intervene for humanitarian reasons. They claim that Ukraine's military actions against the Donbas states require a humtanitarian intervention by Russia. As well, they claim a right to humanitarian intervention to safeguard the lives of ethnic russians in Ukraine.
 
Didn't it formally annex them into the Federation within a few days, then annex two more?

I described how Russia initially justified the special military operation. Not events since then.

Russia did not "annex" the two republics. There were referrendums held in both of them which approved admission to the Russian federation.

In the case of Kherson and Zaporizhzhia, there were also referrendums on independence and joining the russian federation which were successful.

"annexation" is a word used by the western media and western countries. It doesn't describe the process that actually happened.

I'm not defending anything done. I'm simply explaining the Russian case.
 
I'm not defending anything done. I'm simply explaining the Russian case.
Oh, I was just asking the janny lady specifically because she was saying that we should only consider Russia's initial statement as their sole intention and singular goal in the conflict.

But you did end up actually proving my point - their goal does seem to change over time.

Right now, I suspect that they are sitting and letting their economy grow at the expense of everyone else's. Looking at how much growth they've had, across every single sector, I think they might just hold tight for a while and let it simmer.

It would explain why the UK is running around, too - as of the latest, according to my maths, the average Briton now has a similar economic outlook to the average Bulgarian. Despite not actually being at war in any capacity, the UK is somehow one of the biggest losers in this conflict.
 
Stop feeding the retard, please.
united kingdom UK anglos.jpg
 
I have a friend in the trenches and he is saying that the shelling only intensified over the last couple of days. He is depressed as fuck, wants to go home and doesn't subscribe to the entire "Uktaine has ran out of money and people" narrative. Of course, his observation is purely anecdotal, he may just have the shittiest of luck, but my heart goes out to him and I want him back already. It will soon be two years since he left thinking the shitshow will last for a few months tops.
russia doesn't rotate people out?
I will say that CRP not so much deserved it but he should have known better.
the running joke on every stream he was on for the last decade was that when he cut out that he just got hit by artillery and died. Its like John Belushi or Chris Farley dying, everyone knew it would happen, everyone tried to prevent it and while sad we all expected it.
But there is only a $1000 difference between Egypt and the UK for income, when the percentiles come into it.
thats insane. why haven't more people run those numbers, it straight up proves "its not the land, its the people/culture" I'd say a big reason for the difference between the uk and africa is people maintaining everything. the car won't get sold for scrap like it would in africa. but maintained to a stupidly long time. You'll want to stab me for asking but turn back the clock a decade or two, is it still the same numbers wise? because from what i remember from internet comments the UK was thriving until the migrant crisis and recession. Therefore the differences between that and pre-arab spring egypt or ukraine was probably a lot bigger.
I would like to have some more data on the topic, honestly, since it really shows the reality of life.
you also included stuff like petrol or vehicles and a good bit to example would be how often a russian might own or need a car vs an englishman. Another fun one is to examine a night on the town, the cost of heading down to the bar to watch some football. And lastly fun young adult stuff like the price of cocaine or cost for a hooker. there was some reddit post a few weeks ago where some eastern european dude showed how many women he fucked. it was an average of 80 euros and he was screwing 19 year olds. which is like a quarter of what it would could in the uk for some old hag.

I think the biggest stuff thats a difference is stuff that can't be measured or would be measured. stuff like a government and entertainment industry that panders to you vs some brown immigrant. a group of people that share a comment social cultural understanding vs a mishmash of anyone that wants gibs. a government that actually is invested in its population and helping them find jobs vs giving jobs to any nigger that didn't pay attention in school. I remember listening to old podcasts where it was a guy in his early 20s multicultural chicago vs a guy in his early 20s in his home town suburb of detroit and i'd say its similar to a uk vs russian idea.

While the first guy had a higher income, as you said net income was a lot less and his stories were fucking depressing, every episode he whined about being lonely and having neighbors he couldn't communicate with, a police depart that actively fucked with him and other whites because they're less likely to fight back, a transportation system that was scary even for a native to ride on, and it being absurdly common to end up in confrontations even while being a nerdy timid white dude. meanwhile the other guy it was like the trailer park boys or some other canadian sitcoms. everyone in town knew each other and he had a fuck load of stories about everyone and at any time he could find someone to hang with or have a new experience with. It was easy to find a roommate or place to sleep because everyone knew each other and parties happened all the time, especially on the weekends. Because the police were usually local to the area they almost always let people off with warnings or treated people with kid gloves and there were few real misunderstandings even if someone cheated on you or stole from you eventually all would be forgiven.

Basically what i'm saying is that someone in the UK because of the cultural changes is more likely to suffer in ways they wouldn't make polls on vs someone from say Russia where immigration probably is the exact opposite of an issue.
but some of the happy reactions and grave dancing to his death are just disgusting,
the Costin/BAP far right anti-fuentes kikes are loving it and mock people like you who whine. To them you can either be a catboi or a chad that loves knowing CRP died. which are you?
Should there be a separate open maths thread, somewhere?
yes. you should also get people like @Feline Supremacist to confirm on his side about the russian numbers. i'm sure he knows their style of fuckery as good as you do uk's
This is due to manufacturing and replacement of goods from the west especially more of high-added-value goods. Increased in productivity. And shortage of workforce
Latin America had a similar thing happen due to ww2, the people in charge had to build up their own countries because they can't just import shit from europe or the us and it had the knock on effect of causing a shitload of great economic years. It was only once the cold war started that they really started going to shit. It looks like Russia is getting the US' 90s while we're getting your 90s
 
A formal declaration of war after 1945 is technically illegal under the UN charter. The only people who perhaps do them anymore are dumb african and middle eastern countries who don't understand international law anyway. But even there its muddy if its an actual declaration of war in many cases. There are also delcarations of war now by states against non-state entities (see Israel declaring war on Hamas) that are meaningless under international law.

There are often things in contracts, insurance policies and other commerical documents that are triggered by an actual declared war which is another reason not to do them.

The Special Military Operation has been justified by (a) A claim to collective self-defense under the UN charter. Russia recognizes the two donbas republics as independent states. It claims it has a right to help them defend themselves against Ukraine. (b) a Claim to a right to intervene for humanitarian reasons. They claim that Ukraine's military actions against the Donbas states require a humtanitarian intervention by Russia. As well, they claim a right to humanitarian intervention to safeguard the lives of ethnic russians in Ukraine.
Didn't the UK refuse to call the Falklands a war because it would've lead to a bunch of insurance issues?
 
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If you don't like something, you don't have to backseat janny it.
I Concur if anyone here would like Mr. Pink Triangle to be thread-banned you can report him using the report feature otherwise quit complaining. I don't mind a bit of spergery too much so I don't really care if someone says something I think is retarded. Either report him or shut up please as a bunch of posts complaining are also annoying
Right now, I suspect that they are sitting and letting their economy grow at the expense of everyone else's. Looking at how much growth they've had, across every single sector, I think they might just hold tight for a while and let it simmer.
I'll say I don't think Putin needs the war in order to make the economy run smoothly. Putin is an economic genius. I think it is more a strategic and long term economic reason they haven't decided to end the war by launching a major offensive. Obviously they won't end the war with a cease-fire because they haven't achieved their goals, but their reasons for not launching a major offensive yet to take back the land they want are I suspected two-fold. They want to wait until Ukraine is fully degraded so that Offensive action is easy and they want to prevent a lot of fatalities as absorbing those with a below replacement birthrate is quite economically painful.
you also included stuff like petrol or vehicles and a good bit to example would be how often a russian might own or need a car vs an englishman.
I think people especially don't realize how unbelievably poor the UK actually is. There is an Irish economist named Philip Pilkington that I like who has talked about this extensively. The UK basically has no real large industries outside of the Financial Sector. There is a thing that happens in the modern Neoliberal Globalist economies where all wealth becomes concentrated in a large city and everywhere else becomes incredibly poor. The UK has gone through that process.

Slavs may not realize because the west has been rich for so long but basically everywhere in the west has gotten a lot poorer after covid.
the Costin/BAP far right anti-fuentes kikes are loving it and mock people like you who whine. To them you can either be a catboi or a chad that loves knowing CRP died. which are you?
But I hate both groups. They are both homosexual even. There is something kind of gross about celebrating someone's death because you had a petty internet feud with them. It's the type of thing I'd expect out of high schools girls.
 
I'll say I don't think Putin needs the war in order to make the economy run smoothly. Putin is an economic genius. I think it is more a strategic and long term economic reason they haven't decided to end the war by launching a major offensive. Obviously they won't end the war with a cease-fire because they haven't achieved their goals, but their reasons for not launching a major offensive yet to take back the land they want are I suspected two-fold. They want to wait until Ukraine is fully degraded so that Offensive action is easy and they want to prevent a lot of fatalities as absorbing those with a below replacement birthrate is quite economically painful.
Putin understands that he cannot trust the West to uphold any form of a cease-fire or peace agreement, so he's taking the hard but long path to a lasting peace between Russia and Ukraine...which means leaving it smaller, poorer, depopulated, effectively demilitarized, and useless to the West as a proxy to attack Russia.

And not for nothing, but this is also a golden opportunity to give the Russian Armed Forces some real combat experience and test out their equipment against NATO hardware...which, mind you, since these handouts are also depleting the NATO nations' stocks, this leaves NATO in effectively no position to resist Russian demands if Putin decides the time has come to play hardball.
 
I’ve heard the theory that at this inflection point, the US & NATO are just barely keeping Russia from winning to dog their economy and war machine. I find that really depressing. Ukraine is the sacrificial lamb thats getting fucked for the west’s benefit. Every gibs package for them is just a mirage of false hope.

Trump winning and brokering a peace deal would work in Ukraine’s benefit. They could at least cut losses. 4 more years of Biden will just add some zeros to the death toll for them.
 
I’ve heard the theory that at this inflection point, the US & NATO are just barely keeping Russia from winning to dog their economy and war machine. I find that really depressing. Ukraine is the sacrificial lamb thats getting fucked for the west’s benefit. Every gibs package for them is just a mirage of false hope.
ngl that sounds like copium

An abstract theory relying on the absence of evidence with no known sources, that's definitely something the other thread would cling to, to claim that Russia is going to lose.

Though i can see where this theory came from, Nato's strategies has been a shitshow from the beginning so it would be nice to imagine a scenario where they planned for this. Sadly this is just a shitshow run by senile old men. It's highly possible that they are running with a playbook that was intended to be executed with Hillary was president - and it might have worked at that time - but it's blatantly clear that the four year delay had given Russia plenty of time to prepare for the sanctions. Whoever is in charge (if there is anyone) fails to recognize that the plan they are using is not working and is unable to change it - and they are probably convinced that Russia will implode any day now. The old guard is visibly stuck in the past and it's getting kind of scary - they're pushing progressive values that reached their goals decades ago and are now becoming very destructive.

I'm actually pretty sure that if Trump did not become president then Russia would have collapsed by now - simply because he was an obstacle. Russia should make a statue to him, something like a massive unmovable bolder carved in the likeness of his face and hair.
 
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ngl that sounds like copium

An abstract theory relying on the absence of evidence with no known sources, that's definitely something the other thread would cling to to claim that Russia is going to lose.
Because it starts with "The US and NATO are barely keeping Russia from winning". The implication being that the West still has all the "real power" and could magically make Russia stop fighting if it really wanted to.

Reality is that Russia is deliberately and methodically dismantling Ukraine, and by extension bleeding the West and exposing how toothless and weak our governments really are. The defeat in Afghanistan, the failure of Ukraine, the "economic sanctions" going nowhere, and now Israel's starting to get up shit creek without a paddle? All of this tells everyone against the West/Globohomo that yeah, you really can just tell them "Fuck you, go away!" and the West can't do shit to you.

Hell, why do you think BRICS really became a thing? It's an alternative to the bullshit ultimatums the West has laid on other nations since the 1970s. "Troon out your kids and embrace Freedom And Democracy(TM)! If you don't, we'll make your people starve, depose your government, and replace it with one that will happily be our puppet!", and a lot of the world is eager for an alternative to this shit. An alternative that Russia and China have proven can work in a mutually beneficial way.

So really, why would Russia hurry things along? Russia's not interrupting its enemies when they're ritually committing suicide in the name of Diversity(TM) and Our Democracy(TM). Why kill Zalinsky when he actively hurts Ukraine's efforts? Why bother trying to negotiate a ceasefire when you can accomplish your military and political goals by keeping the fight going a few more months?

And since it's 2024 and we all can feel it...why give the Biden regime a victory? Why not bleed America's munitions stockpiles a little more so that if a civil war happens, the rebels have a chance at winning, and Russia can aid whichever rebel group looks most likely to win to curry favor with the new government-to-be?
 
Anyone else think the guys in the other thread are fags
So I smoked a joint the other day behind my monitor and thought I hit the bookmark to this thread to catch up but what actually happened was I hit the bookmark for the other one, one is above the other in the list.
Was reading for a while thinking damn kf is really good at being sarcastic what a treat what fun.
 
The Ukrainian soldier stared at the Russian tank. It was destroyed over a year ago in the country’s east and now sat far from the front line. He shrugged and cut into its rusted hull with a gas torch.

The soldier was not there for the tank’s engine or turret or treads. Those had already been salvaged. He was there for its thick armor. The metal would be cut and strapped as protection to Ukrainian armored personnel carriers defending the embattled town of Avdiivka, around 65 miles away.

The need to cannibalize a destroyed Russian vehicle to help protect Ukraine’s dwindling supply of equipment underscores Kyiv’s current challenges on the battlefield as it prepares for another year of pitched combat.

“If our international partners moved faster, we would have kicked their ass in the first three or four months so hard that we would have gotten over it already. We’d be sowing fields and raising children,” said the soldier, who went by the call sign Jaeger, in keeping with military protocol. “We’d be sending bread to Europe. But it’s been two years already.”

Ukraine’s military prospects are looking bleak. Western military aid is no longer assured at the same levels as years past. Ukraine’s summer counteroffensive in the south, where Jaeger was wounded days after it began, is over, having failed to meet any of its objectives.

And now, Russian troops are on the attack, especially in the country’s east. The town of Marinka has all but fallen. Avdiivka is being slowly encircled. A push on Chasiv Yar, near Bakhmut, is expected. Farther north, outside Kupiansk, the fighting has barely slowed since the fall.

The joke among Ukrainian troops goes like this: The Russian army is not good or bad. It is just long. The Kremlin has more of everything: more men, ammunition and vehicles. And they are not stopping despite their mounting numbers of wounded and dead.

But the soldiers’ joke had another certain truth to it. Neither side has distinguished themselves with tactics that have led to a breakthrough on the battlefield. Instead, it has been a deadly dance of small technological advances on both sides that have yet to turn the tide, leaving a conflict that looks like a modernized version of World War I’s Western Front: sheer mass versus mass.

It is that tactic that provides Russia the advantage as it pushes to secure Ukraine’s eastern Donbas region, Moscow’s primary war aim after its defeat in 2022 around Kharkiv, Kherson and the capital, Kyiv. Russia has a population three times the size of Ukraine’s, and its military industrial base is operating at full tilt.

“The Russian advantage at this stage is not decisive, but the war is not a stalemate,” said Michael Kofman, a senior fellow in the Russia and Eurasia program at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, who recently visited Ukraine. “Depending on what happens this year, particularly with western support for Ukraine, 2024 will likely take one of two trajectories. Ukraine could retake the advantage by 2025, or it could start losing the war without sufficient aid.”

For now, Ukraine is in a perilous position. The problems afflicting its military have been exacerbated since the summer. Ukrainian soldiers are exhausted by long stretches of combat and shorter rest periods. The ranks, thinned by mounting casualties, are only being partly replenished, often with older and poorly trained recruits.

One Ukrainian soldier, part of a brigade tasked with holding the line southwest of Avdiivka, pointed to a video he took during training recently. The instructors, trying to stifle their laughs, were forced to hold up the man, who was in his mid-50s, just so he could fire his rifle. The man was crippled from alcoholism, said the soldier, insisting on anonymity to candidly describe a private training episode.

“Three out of ten soldiers who show up are no better than drunks who fell asleep and woke up in uniform,” he said, referring to the new recruits who arrive at his brigade.

Kyiv’s recruiting strategy has been plagued by overly aggressive tactics and more widespread attempts to dodge the draft. Efforts to rectify the problem have spawned a political argument between the military and civilian leadership.

Military officials reinforce the need for wider mobilization to win the war, but the office of President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine is apprehensive about introducing unpopular changes that could end with a drive to mobilize 500,000 new soldiers. That number, analysts say, takes into account Ukraine’s staggering losses and what is likely needed to push back the Russians.

While Ukrainian casualties remain a closely guarded secret, U.S. officials over the summer estimated deaths and injuries to be well over 150,000. Russian forces have also taken huge numbers of casualties, according to those officials, but the Kremlin’s forces still managed to repel a concerted Ukrainian counteroffensive, regroup and are now assaulting in frigid winter conditions.

“We’re tired,” a Ukrainian platoon commander said, speaking anonymously given the sensitivity of his comments. “We could always use more people.”

The shortage of troops is only one part of the problem. The other and currently more pressing issue is Ukraine’s dwindling ammunition reserves as continued Western supplies remain anything but certain. Ukrainian commanders now have to ration their ammunition, not knowing whether every new shipment might be their last.

At the end of 2023, members of a Ukrainian artillery crew from the 10th Brigade sat inside a bunker nestled into a bare tree line in the country’s east, their Soviet-era 122-millimeter howitzer draped in camouflage netting and leafless branches.

Only when a truck carrying two artillery shells arrived could the crew get to work for the first time in days. They quickly loaded the shells and fired toward Russian soldiers attacking Ukrainian positions three miles away.

“Today we had two shells, but some days we don’t have any in these positions,” said the crew’s commander, who goes by the call sign Monk. “The last time we fired was four days ago, and that was only five shells.”

The shortage of ammunition — and the shifting battlefield momentum — means the gunners are no longer supporting Ukrainian attacks. Instead, they only fire when Russian troops are storming Ukrainian trenches.

“We can stop them for now, but who knows,” Monk said. “Tomorrow or the next day, maybe we can’t stop them. It’s a really big problem for us.”

Near Kupiansk, a deputy battalion commander from the 68th Brigade, who goes by the call sign Italian, echoed Monk’s concerns.

“I have two tanks, but only five shells,” said Italian, as he walked through a denuded tree line splintered by shelling about 500 yards from Russian positions in the Luhansk region. “It’s a bad situation now, especially in Avdiivka and Kupiansk.”

This ammunition imbalance has been felt across much of the more than 600-mile front line, Ukrainian soldiers said. The Russian units are in a position similar to the summer of 2022, where they can simply wear down a Ukrainian position until Kyiv’s forces run out of ordnance. But unlike that summer, there is no longer a frantic scramble in Western capitals to arm and re-equip Ukraine’s troops.

And unlike that summer, drones have assumed a much larger presence in the arsenal of both sides — especially the FPV racing drones affixed with explosives and used like remote-controlled missiles.

These drones have supplemented traditional artillery as both Russia and Ukraine wrestle with stockpiling enough shells to wage a protracted and bloody war. In the past nine months, the FPV drone numbers have surged by at least 10 times, and more casualties are caused by drones than artillery on some parts of the front, Ukrainian soldiers said.
Even the tranche of United States-supplied cluster munitions, controversial because they harm civilians long after a war’s end, has lost some of its potency on the battlefield.
“Initially in September, we could hit large groups, but now they assault in much smaller units,” said the platoon commander, who was fighting outside Bakhmut. He added that the Russians have made their trenches even deeper and harder to hit.

Outside Avdiivka, where Russian forces are concentrating much of their forces in the east, the rumble of artillery on one recent afternoon was almost nonstop. It was a soundtrack not heard since the war’s earlier months, when Russian paramilitary forces assaulted Bakhmut, eventually capturing it.

The soldiers defending Avdiivka’s flank said that some days, Russian formations had assaulted in nine separate waves, hoping for Ukrainian trenches to fold. It is a tactic replicated across the front by Moscow’s infantry, with little sign of stopping despite a high attrition rate common for a force attacking dug-in positions.

Washington’s suggestion for Ukraine to go on the defensive in 2024 will mean little if Kyiv does not have the ammunition or people to defend what territory it currently holds, analysts have said.

“Our guys are getting pounded heavily,” said Bardak, a Ukrainian soldier working alongside Jaeger next to the derelict tank. “It’s hot all over now.”
 
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