Game of Thrones Thread

Here's a fun thought:

[diversity horrorshow clipped for my own sanity]

Here's an even more fun thought: there's never going to be a remake or another shot at ASOIAF if Martin never gets off his ass and finishes it. What would be the point? It'll just be a broken, incomplete series from a man who bit off more than he could chew, permanently tainted by a pair of genuine hackfrauds whose hackery became more evident the more material they ran out of.
 
[diversity horrorshow clipped for my own sanity]

Here's an even more fun thought: there's never going to be a remake or another shot at ASOIAF if Martin never gets off his ass and finishes it. What would be the point? It'll just be a broken, incomplete series from a man who bit off more than he could chew, permanently tainted by a pair of genuine hackfrauds whose hackery became more evident the more material they ran out of.
I wholeheartedly agree, if GoT might ever be remade, its biggest shot at that would be George Martin getting his shit together and releasing the last books, give or take a few years after that, someone might tackle a TV show based on ASOIAF again . . . if George Martin ever does this. The chances of that decrease with every year.

But here's the thing: the movie industry has shown many times that nothing is sacred and they have no shame when it comes to remakes. I don't think chances of GoT being remade without a finished book-series are that good, but I fear they aren't zero.

Either way, it would take at least a decade from now for anyone to even humor the thought to remake the show, since they surely want some distance to wht D&D shat out.
 
I'm not sad to see Lady Stoneheart not making it into the show, without knowing what it leads up to, it feels kind of pointless in the books and I wouldn't know how that story would tie into the greater plot in the end, so leaving her out isn't that bad...
I maintain naming the season 3 and 4 finales (episodes naturally suited for the Stoneheart reveal) "Mysha/Mother" and "the Children", respectively, was a pretty clever bit of trolling by the show's staff towards book fans.
I say "show's staff" instead of showrunners because if D&D wind up being responsible for that decision I have a hard time believing it was anything but an accident.
 
I maintain naming the season 3 and 4 finales (episodes naturally suited for the Stoneheart reveal) "Mysha/Mother" and "the Children", respectively, was a pretty clever bit of trolling by the show's staff towards book fans.
I say "show's staff" instead of showrunners because if D&D wind up being responsible for that decision I have a hard time believing it was anything but an accident.
Speaking of the Season 4 finale, I still wonder why they changed the topic of Tyrion's and Tywin's last talk. In the series, Tyrion shoots his father for calling Shae a whore, the books have a far better dialogue about Tyrion's first wife that Tywin had raped by his entire garrison before making his own son have sex with her a last time. Tywin repeatedly calls her a whore, Tyrion tells him to stop and asks him where she went after all that happened and Tywin goes "Whereever whores go" and is shot.

It takes away so much from Tyrion to change this and it is a pretty major sign that Dumb&Dumber just didn't get ASOIAF.
 
Speaking of the Season 4 finale, I still wonder why they changed the topic of Tyrion's and Tywin's last talk. In the series, Tyrion shoots his father for calling Shae a whore, the books have a far better dialogue about Tyrion's first wife that Tywin had raped by his entire garrison before making his own son have sex with her a last time. Tywin repeatedly calls her a whore, Tyrion tells him to stop and asks him where she went after all that happened and Tywin goes "Whereever whores go" and is shot.

It takes away so much from Tyrion to change this and it is a pretty major sign that Dumb&Dumber just didn't get ASOIAF.
I'd blame it on a combination of two things:
1. General streamlining for television: the audience is familiar with Shae, while Tysha was only mentioned once in the drinking game in Tyrion's tent in season 2. I'm not even sure her name was brought up in that scene, and apparently it only happened b/c HBO wouldn't spring for a filmed Battle of Whispering Wood that season, so another writer added it in to kill time. I'm pretty sure D&D have only the vaguest idea who Tysha even is.
2. Tyrion's image rehabilitation in the latter half of the series: GRRM has described Tyrion, more than once, as "his favorite villain". His attitude and conduct in A Dance with Dragons is markedly darker than in previous books. Signs are pointing that he'll get darker as the series progresses before he flips back, if ever he does. The problem is Tyrion's by far the most popular character in the show, so he can't turn into a villain! This is probably also why his conversation with Jaime in the same episode was similarly neutered. In the show they part as brothers who had a pretty bad argument. In the books, that conversation is the moment Tyrion decides to become the villain everyone already thinks he is.

The decision to keep Tyrion a good guy is why he's profoundly useless in the second half of the show and why Peter Dinklage spent most of it vacantly staring into space.
 
Sometime in the burning wreckage of GoT's aftermath, there was an interview published where D&D specifically said they didn't want to cater to a certain kind of fantasy fan. A lot of the magical stuff got sidelined (Lady Stoneheart was undoubtedly the biggest), and I don't think they were ever really comfortable with it, and probably viewed it as dorky and stupid. That what we got instead was a sex obsessed soccer hooligan tells you a lot about what they think isn't dorky and stupid.
Good thing they didn't have a blue faggot and a giant ice dragon as the final bad guy then.
 
I maintain naming the season 3 and 4 finales (episodes naturally suited for the Stoneheart reveal) "Mysha/Mother" and "the Children", respectively, was a pretty clever bit of trolling by the show's staff towards book fans.
I say "show's staff" instead of showrunners because if D&D wind up being responsible for that decision I have a hard time believing it was anything but an accident.

Also, the Season 5 finale, when it was still plausible she might show up, was called "Mother's Mercy."
 
Here's a fun thought: in our current climate of forced diversity and SJW-virtue signalling in TV shows and movies, in any remake of GoT, the Starks of Winterfell will look like a fucking Cosby Show reuinion, complete with ebonic-gibberish. The only white people will be the Freys, who no longer are the Kings of the Crossing, but rather the Kings of the Cotton, who enslaved brave negroes from Essos or some shit. Our only hope is that the remake will come so late that it happens once this stupid political trend has burned down.

Weren't they already planning to do this in one of the spin-offs, wherein one of the Starks' ancestors would've been black? I think they even finished the pilot for it but HBO surprisingly went "No... noooo.... no." and passed on it.
 
Weren't they already planning to do this in one of the spin-offs, wherein one of the Starks' ancestors would've been black? I think they even finished the pilot for it but HBO surprisingly went "No... noooo.... no." and passed on it.
Nah they were going to blackwash the Children of the Forest, much in the same way the Netflix Witcher series did with elves (depriving themselves of one of fantasy's unique abilities to tell stories about race/racism without injecting all the real-world cultural baggage into the issue, but I digress) and make the whole show about the evils of colonialism.
So instead of the Starks' ancestors being black, it's that they're brutal colonizers, apparently. Fortunately HBO had enough wisdom to put a pin in that nonsense. The screeching about 3 years and $30 million being wasted on the pilot by the prospective showrunners and their cheerleaders in film media was pretty enjoyable, though.
 
Good thing they didn't have a blue faggot and a giant ice dragon as the final bad guy then.
Rich Evans of RLM once said that Star Trek has become a mainstream thing and is no longer made for nerds who understand the science bit of sci-fi, but rather it has become cheap action-packed distraction for jocks, who have no clue and do not care about science. They just want to see bright laserbeams and colorful explosions.

The same seems to be true in Fantasy, only it's dragons, fire and limbs getting chopped off. Quality be damned, consistency be damned, plot be damned, we need dragons lighting shit on fire and people getting their dicks chopped off.

Weren't they already planning to do this in one of the spin-offs, wherein one of the Starks' ancestors would've been black? I think they even finished the pilot for it but HBO surprisingly went "No... noooo.... no." and passed on it.
What fresh hell is this?
If HBO decided against making this series, I would not attribute that to them having a modicum of sense left in deciding that this sounds like hot garbage, but rather that Season 8 lead to such a massive shitstorm, that the brand became toxic for a little while and they shelved it indefinetly.

Kinda ironic. I would describe myself as a liberal person and I support the ideas of equality and (to an extent) diversity, but holy fucking shit, with every piece of media becoming a mere tool to spin political pro-diversity propaganda I become more and more pissed off at this shit. Every such act makes me just a tiny bit more averse to this whole idea, I swear to god. Absolutely NEVER are these plans backed by a genuinely passionate idea or creative thought, it's always, ALWAYS just spiteful shit on the level of the writers going: "Oh, you like the Starks in this setting that's too white for CURRENT YEAR+4? Well, fuck you, we make their ancestors a bunch of black people, how you like that?"
Bonuspoints if anyone is accused of racism, that dares to criticise this stuff for the blatant and petty bullshit and the poor quality.

These projects aren't meant to create awesome new things, they are the cultural equivalent to a sledgehammer, they are meant to take away, to punish people for their wrong tastes and forcing the "right tastes" down their throat.
 
Weren't they already planning to do this in one of the spin-offs, wherein one of the Starks' ancestors would've been black? I think they even finished the pilot for it but HBO surprisingly went "No... noooo.... no." and passed on it.

Yes, Bloodmoon, they spent 30+ million on the pilot episode and then trashed it. I hope it comes to light someday because it must have been epically bad.
 
Looking into it, the first white walker would've been black and one of the Stark ancestors would've been mixed-race.

Yeah, I really hope someone leaks the pilot in the future. Apparently the production of it was 'troubled' and Jane Goldman and the execs never say eye-to-eye on anything, with them seeing her first attempt at the pilot and going "no, shit sucks, do it again.", seeing the second attempt at the pilot and going, "no, shit sucks and now we're pulling the plug."

A spin-off called 'House of the Dragon' is supposedly still moving forward, so I doubt the series being tainted by season 8 was the reason they cancelled Bloodmoon.
 
The whole "it's fantasy for adults, none of that lame nerdass Tolkien stuff, the politics is the important stuff" spiel DandD and their shills spout is hilarious because the source material is brimming with magic, even more than some other fantasy series. Just because GRRM is vague about explaining the magic doesn't mean it's not there.

Ice zombies, dragons, living trees, elves, face-changing assassins, fire gods, prophecies, giants, magical dreams, shapeshifters...But nah it's totally all about two dudebros' understanding of medieval politics, totally.

Besides it's a fantasy, most people who read fantasy due so to read the magical elements. If they want some 100% realistic political thriller they'd read other books. They should just own it and not be ashamed of it.
 
The whole "it's fantasy for adults, none of that lame nerdass Tolkien stuff, the politics is the important stuff" spiel DandD and their shills spout is hilarious because the source material is brimming with magic, even more than some other fantasy series. Just because GRRM is vague about explaining the magic doesn't mean it's not there.

Ice zombies, dragons, living trees, elves, face-changing assassins, fire gods, prophecies, giants, magical dreams, shapeshifters...But nah it's totally all about two dudebros' understanding of medieval politics, totally.

Besides it's a fantasy, most people who read fantasy due so to read the magical elements. If they want some 100% realistic political thriller they'd read other books. They should just own it and not be ashamed of it.
The coolest thing about the books was how magic was slowly introduced. The first book was largely grounded and the idea of magic was either mocked or talked about in hushed tones. It was something that used to exist but wasn't around anymore. Then the end with Daenerys happens and after that, magic slowly but surely becomes part of the world. It allows for the world to develop and drives home just how powerful magic can be in this world.

Throwing that away is throwing away one of the most interesting plot threads in my eyes.
 
The whole "it's fantasy for adults, none of that lame nerdass Tolkien stuff, the politics is the important stuff" spiel DandD and their shills spout is hilarious because the source material is brimming with magic, even more than some other fantasy series. Just because GRRM is vague about explaining the magic doesn't mean it's not there.

Ice zombies, dragons, living trees, elves, face-changing assassins, fire gods, prophecies, giants, magical dreams, shapeshifters...But nah it's totally all about two dudebros' understanding of medieval politics, totally.

Besides it's a fantasy, most people who read fantasy due so to read the magical elements. If they want some 100% realistic political thriller they'd read other books. They should just own it and not be ashamed of it.

Same with Joe Abercrombie's "The First Law" series, book 8 of which appeareth this September (assuming he doesn't die of the Kung Flu.) The whole idea behind the story is that magic is vanishing but the great archmages who used to rule the world in ancient times don't want to give up their power.
 
The magic in ASOIF (barring the mystical creatures) always seemed to me as the weakest part of the series. It just doesn't make sense that there is a level of magic that allows you to create shadow assassins or kill prominent figures via manipulating fate and it not being a well known tool to the aristocracy. The inclusion of fate reading is also a really shitty storytelling tool that removes a lot of possiblities because it boils down the story into "when is the prophecy fullfilled in a way and what will be the twist?".
 
The magic in ASOIF (barring the mystical creatures) always seemed to me as the weakest part of the series. It just doesn't make sense that there is a level of magic that allows you to create shadow assassins or kill prominent figures via manipulating fate and it not being a well known tool to the aristocracy. The inclusion of fate reading is also a really shitty storytelling tool that removes a lot of possiblities because it boils down the story into "when is the prophecy fullfilled in a way and what will be the twist?".
The prophesies were usually vague enough that a lot of things were up to interpretation. The red comet is a good example, since it is used by many different characters as a sign in favor of their side. Melissandre ties it to Azor Ahai, Danaerys ties it to her dragons (I think), the Lannisters think it supports them due to red being the Lannister color and so on.

To me, the vagueness and the adaptability of the prophecies were always one of the better aspects, cause it allowed a wide interpretation and you'd never know who got it right and what aspects were true/relevant. It also played with the concept of mistranslations in terms of a prophecyrelating to the future of House Targaryen.

The coolest thing about the books was how magic was slowly introduced. The first book was largely grounded and the idea of magic was either mocked or talked about in hushed tones. It was something that used to exist but wasn't around anymore. Then the end with Daenerys happens and after that, magic slowly but surely becomes part of the world. It allows for the world to develop and drives home just how powerful magic can be in this world.

Throwing that away is throwing away one of the most interesting plot threads in my eyes.
They threw out so much about Dany's storyline, they might as well have deleted her from the show. One of the biggest jaw-droppers in the books is the revelation that House Martell is colluding with Ilyrio Mopatis to bring back the Targaryens... They left that out and it would have been amazing, I think. Said aspect fell short on later seasons to a point that a quarter of the entire map of Westeros became irrelevant. Fucking stupid.
They also left out so many things in Danys personal plot, that there was barely anything left. In the TV Show, whenever we got a cut to Essos and Dany fucking up despite her wranglers telling her she was doing it wrong, I was annoyed, anything in Essos was the weakest aspect of GoT. It's not fantastic in the books either, but it's way more interesting and far less annoying.
 
The prophesies were usually vague enough that a lot of things were up to interpretation. The red comet is a good example, since it is used by many different characters as a sign in favor of their side. Melissandre ties it to Azor Ahai, Danaerys ties it to her dragons (I think), the Lannisters think it supports them due to red being the Lannister color and so on.

To me, the vagueness and the adaptability of the prophecies were always one of the better aspects, cause it allowed a wide interpretation and you'd never know who got it right and what aspects were true/relevant. It also played with the concept of mistranslations in terms of a prophecyrelating to the future of House Targaryen.
Only some prophecies were like that. But cases like Cersei's prophecy means she is in no danger until Tyrion or Jaime are back in King's Landing. Or the long ass prophecy for Dany that she'll meet a lot of new characters means she can't die until she fills every single criteria. It basically removes the stakes from a character until the prophecy reaches it's conclusion and there is no reason to believe that those two prophecies will be false so it is possible that Cersei gets poisoned by the court.
 
[diversity horrorshow clipped for my own sanity]

Here's an even more fun thought: there's never going to be a remake or another shot at ASOIAF if Martin never gets off his ass and finishes it. What would be the point? It'll just be a broken, incomplete series from a man who bit off more than he could chew, permanently tainted by a pair of genuine hackfrauds whose hackery became more evident the more material they ran out of.
The books and the tv series are fundamentally different creatures. ASOIAF is GRRM melding his simplistic disdain for the Vietnam war and the Bush adventures (bad people do bad things when they have power) with a pretty overt climate change analogue, which everybody ignores because it isn't an immediate threat to them.

Game of Thrones as a tv production, is sort of a monument to whats wrong with Western Culture in the 2010s. Subversion for its own sake, resulting in an inferior product to the original.
It tries to distinguish itself from past eras by being both grander in vision to what came before but also darker, and more cynical. It's not afraid to offend with sex and gore, and yet at the first sign of real public outcry crumbles like an old woman's hip. Child sacrifice got virtually 0 backlash on grounds of morality, whilst a forced marriage and rape earlier in the season was triggering enough to get all future sex scenes scrubbed and sanitised henceforth.
The stately figures are demonstrably past their prime, and feel like they squandered their youth, while the younger characters have been given a multitude of reasons to be unhappy with the status quo only to have their energies misdirected in the worst of ways. Eventually, the ones that survive to the final series have developed skills to be game-changers in their own right, but the pay-off isn't proportional to their efforts, if it's even there at all.
There's plenty to be optimistic about, and the long-term threats can be tackled constructively, but instead ugliness and nihilism wins out almost all the time, and in the cheapest of ways. And then, because the writers want to chart their own path and reject the tropes of past eras, wind up creating a story that still relies on those same tropes by way of subversive contrast, and is nonetheless inferior for it. Any potential hero that naturally arises over a nigh-decade of constant loss and bloodshed has to be quickly taken down a notch in case the audience is confused the show will have a happy ending. "There are no heroes, that's all folks!" is not a compelling and timeless tale.
It's nearly a case study in why literary tropes became tropes. Because running away from them invariably results in crafting something that just fails to resonate with people.
At some stage, probably when writing season 5, D&D realised the trajectory they've got the important characters on was so fundamentally divergent from their book counterparts, that they could have pitched to GRRM a different ending more befitting them. Instead, they continued haphazardly towards an end goal that no longer made sense, and fans in the final seasons were totally wise to things just happening because the writers demanded it occur. When it should have been, and originally was, an organic consequence of character motivations and the world itself.
D&D? More like TNT haha. They blew this franchise's cultural impact up in the space of about 4 weeks with those final episodes.
The magic in ASOIF (barring the mystical creatures) always seemed to me as the weakest part of the series. It just doesn't make sense that there is a level of magic that allows you to create shadow assassins or kill prominent figures via manipulating fate and it not being a well known tool to the aristocracy. The inclusion of fate reading is also a really shitty storytelling tool that removes a lot of possiblities because it boils down the story into "when is the prophecy fullfilled in a way and what will be the twist?".
Again, it's D&D misunderstanding the source material, but absent GRRM's input it's hard to tell if the series will end with magic being normalised again or dying with the dragons in the final fight against the ice zombies. I'm inclined to think even GRRM doesn't know how that'll go.

What's troubling to me is that GRRM is of a generation that went through Catholic school and has his worldview framed by opposing its authority. Being atheistic was transgressive 50 years ago but now it's unironically boring. Still, he's writing a series set in a medieval analogue and he figured it needs a Catholicism analogue too. TROUBLE IS, from the frozen north to the Ancient East, their minority religions have verifiable powers. Be it resurrection, shape shifting, and so on. Even the fucking goatpeople are able to prevent death--even choosing their preferred degree of what qualifies as "alive". Maybe these skills are independent of their faiths but they're presented as exclusively used by one faction or another, and the religious rituals clearly facilitate them somehow. How the hell could The Seven ever take hold if they don't have anything supernatural going for them? I don't think GRRM considered such reciprocity when worldbuilding, and it stems from his own biases of it all being made up lmao.
 
They threw out so much about Dany's storyline, they might as well have deleted her from the show. One of the biggest jaw-droppers in the books is the revelation that House Martell is colluding with Ilyrio Mopatis to bring back the Targaryens... They left that out and it would have been amazing, I think. Said aspect fell short on later seasons to a point that a quarter of the entire map of Westeros became irrelevant. Fucking stupid.

The Dornish subplot and how it was a total waste of time and effort probably put paid to that. Imagine if "you want the good girl, but you need the BAAAAAD POOSEH" tier writing was applied to this.
 
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