US Cloudflare: "Terminating Service for 8Chan"


Terminating Service for 8Chan

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August 05, 2019 1:44AM


The mass shootings in El Paso, Texas and Dayton, Ohio are horrific tragedies. In the case of the El Paso shooting, the suspected terrorist gunman appears to have been inspired by the forum website known as 8chan. Based on evidence we've seen, it appears that he posted a screed to the site immediately before beginning his terrifying attack on the El Paso Walmart killing 20 people.

Unfortunately, this is not an isolated incident. Nearly the same thing happened on 8chan before the terror attack in Christchurch, New Zealand. The El Paso shooter specifically referenced the Christchurch incident and appears to have been inspired by the largely unmoderated discussions on 8chan which glorified the previous massacre. In a separate tragedy, the suspected killer in the Poway, California synagogue shooting also posted a hate-filled “open letter” on 8chan. 8chan has repeatedly proven itself to be a cesspool of hate.

8chan is among the more than 19 million Internet properties that use Cloudflare's service. We just sent notice that we are terminating 8chan as a customer effective at midnight tonight Pacific Time. The rationale is simple: they have proven themselves to be lawless and that lawlessness has caused multiple tragic deaths. Even if 8chan may not have violated the letter of the law in refusing to moderate their hate-filled community, they have created an environment that revels in violating its spirit.

We do not take this decision lightly. Cloudflare is a network provider. In pursuit of our goal of helping build a better internet, we’ve considered it important to provide our security services broadly to make sure as many users as possible are secure, and thereby making cyberattacks less attractive — regardless of the content of those websites. Many of our customers run platforms of their own on top of our network. If our policies are more conservative than theirs it effectively undercuts their ability to run their services and set their own policies. We reluctantly tolerate content that we find reprehensible, but we draw the line at platforms that have demonstrated they directly inspire tragic events and are lawless by design. 8chan has crossed that line. It will therefore no longer be allowed to use our services.

What Will Happen Next

Unfortunately, we have seen this situation before and so we have a good sense of what will play out. Almost exactly two years ago we made the determination to kick another disgusting site off Cloudflare's network: the Daily Stormer. That caused a brief interruption in the site's operations but they quickly came back online using a Cloudflare competitor. That competitor at the time promoted as a feature the fact that they didn't respond to legal process. Today, the Daily Stormer is still available and still disgusting. They have bragged that they have more readers than ever. They are no longer Cloudflare's problem, but they remain the Internet's problem.

I have little doubt we'll see the same happen with 8chan. While removing 8chan from our network takes heat off of us, it does nothing to address why hateful sites fester online. It does nothing to address why mass shootings occur. It does nothing to address why portions of the population feel so disenchanted they turn to hate. In taking this action we've solved our own problem, but we haven't solved the Internet's.

In the two years since the Daily Stormer what we have done to try and solve the Internet’s deeper problem is engage with law enforcement and civil society organizations to try and find solutions. Among other things, that resulted in us cooperating around monitoring potential hate sites on our network and notifying law enforcement when there was content that contained an indication of potential violence. We will continue to work within the legal process to share information when we can to hopefully prevent horrific acts of violence. We believe this is our responsibility and, given Cloudflare's scale and reach, we are hopeful we will continue to make progress toward solving the deeper problem.

Rule of Law

We continue to feel incredibly uncomfortable about playing the role of content arbiter and do not plan to exercise it often. Some have wrongly speculated this is due to some conception of the United States' First Amendment. That is incorrect. First, we are a private company and not bound by the First Amendment. Second, the vast majority of our customers, and more than 50% of our revenue, comes from outside the United States where the First Amendment and similarly libertarian freedom of speech protections do not apply. The only relevance of the First Amendment in this case and others is that it allows us to choose who we do and do not do business with; it does not obligate us to do business with everyone.

Instead our concern has centered around another much more universal idea: the Rule of Law. The Rule of Law requires policies be transparent and consistent. While it has been articulated as a framework for how governments ensure their legitimacy, we have used it as a touchstone when we think about our own policies.

We have been successful because we have a very effective technological solution that provides security, performance, and reliability in an affordable and easy-to-use way. As a result of that, a huge portion of the Internet now sits behind our network. 10% of the top million, 17% of the top 100,000, and 19% of the top 10,000 Internet properties use us today. 10% of the Fortune 1,000 are paying Cloudflare customers.

Cloudflare is not a government. While we've been successful as a company, that does not give us the political legitimacy to make determinations on what content is good and bad. Nor should it. Questions around content are real societal issues that need politically legitimate solutions. We will continue to engage with lawmakers around the world as they set the boundaries of what is acceptable in their countries through due process of law. And we will comply with those boundaries when and where they are set.

Europe, for example, has taken a lead in this area. As we've seen governments there attempt to address hate and terror content online, there is recognition that different obligations should be placed on companies that organize and promote content — like Facebook and YouTube — rather than those that are mere conduits for that content. Conduits, like Cloudflare, are not visible to users and therefore cannot be transparent and consistent about their policies.
The unresolved question is how should the law deal with platforms that ignore or actively thwart the Rule of Law? That's closer to the situation we have seen with the Daily Stormer and 8chan. They are lawless platforms. In cases like these, where platforms have been designed to be lawless and unmoderated, and where the platforms have demonstrated their ability to cause real harm, the law may need additional remedies. We and other technology companies need to work with policy makers in order to help them understand the problem and define these remedies. And, in some cases, it may mean moving enforcement mechanisms further down the technical stack.

Our Obligation

Cloudflare's mission is to help build a better Internet. At some level firing 8chan as a customer is easy. They are uniquely lawless and that lawlessness has contributed to multiple horrific tragedies. Enough is enough.

What's hard is defining the policy that we can enforce transparently and consistently going forward. We, and other technology companies like us that enable the great parts of the Internet, have an obligation to help propose solutions to deal with the parts we're not proud of. That's our obligation and we're committed to it.

Unfortunately the action we take today won’t fix hate online. It will almost certainly not even remove 8chan from the Internet. But it is the right thing to do. Hate online is a real issue. Here are some organizations that have active work to help address it:
Our whole Cloudflare team’s thoughts are with the families grieving in El Paso, Texas and Dayton, Ohio this evening.
 
Anyone serious about making a platform that operated in this matter would recognize the need to implement a means for pruning the blockchain when content of that type was flagged as illegal as a core feature.

With Bitcoin, comment features aren't necessary and arguably shouldn't exist at all. However, in general, if you eliminate the middle of a blockchain you've just broken the chain of authentication. At least somewhere, there has to be some record of everything, even if the vast majority of nodes aren't complete.

And if the point is to create something that literally can't be censored by any central authority no matter who gets a gun to their head, why would you insert such a thing?

The problem is any such network is invariably going to be a locus of illegal activity, as happened with Freenet and every subsequent similar network.
 
Yeah it's an interesting model for sure right guys? Immutable, but still moderated. I mean, we didn't take the idea too far because other projects are springing up that are superior, but there are a ton of things you could do. I took my instance offline just now to troll you guys and prove a point. Maybe I'll put it back, maybe I won't. It doesn't matter really. Anyone can download the client, use it locally, host it online, modify it, mutilate it. And again, I didn't create it. My only role was I gave some free time and code for the front end and some other polish - you can see from the repo. I think the idea of filling the Ripple blockchain with shitposts is a hilarious proposition though, it's rather sad this is lost on some of you.

BlockChan was a simple proof of concept hammered out quickly to prove a point. Now that you've received the point, I'll leave you to ponder what it might be like to actually have what you've been whinging about for the last fucking decade. Some day soon these types of platforms will be what people run to. Screenshot this.
 
Yeah it's an interesting model for sure right guys? Immutable, but still moderated. I mean, we didn't take the idea too far because other projects are springing up that are superior, but there are a ton of things you could do. I took my instance offline just now to troll you guys and prove a point. Maybe I'll put it back, maybe I won't. It doesn't matter really. Anyone can download the client, use it locally, host it online, modify it, mutilate it. And again, I didn't create it. My only role was I gave some free time and code for the front end and some other polish - you can see from the repo. I think the idea of filling the Ripple blockchain with shitposts is a hilarious proposition though, it's rather sad this is lost on some of you.

BlockChan was a simple proof of concept hammered out quickly to prove a point. Now that you've received the point, I'll leave you to ponder what it might be like to actually have what you've been whinging about for the last fucking decade. Some day soon these types of platforms will be what people run to. Screenshot this.
It's post like this we need an "oww the edge" reaction. I guess "Autism" will suffice.
 
is name "Bradley Gates" meaning anything to you? it is interest you call jim scammer, very checkered history you have.

Swing and a miss. Not even one of my pseudonyms.

And if the point is to create something that literally can't be censored by any central authority no matter who gets a gun to their head, why would you insert such a thing?

The problem is any such network is invariably going to be a locus of illegal activity, as happened with Freenet and every subsequent similar network.

The answer is because they deserve it. And yes I agree we had that happen to us on day 1. What you need to do is get creative with moderation logic. So many options here including incentivizing mods/users with crypto. We didn't even get started on it.

Anyways I would forget about BlockChan, we're no longer interested in it and there are much more interesting things happening that incorporate some really fresh ideas with regards to moderation and board creation. I won't shill them here because quite frankly you all seem extremely disinterested and blasé with this entire concept. I did my best but I won't even try to swaddle you any further.
 
Oh I will absolutely say it mate. I will even BOLDFACE AND CAPS the shit for you since you seem like you need it --> I WANT TO FUCK HIS SHIT UP. I've really been asschapped with him ever since he stole 2ch, hid behind litigation with yet another shell corp, and then pulled the same trick with Fred. In webdev circles nothing is lower than stealing someone's domain. It makes you a pariah. I have more juicy dirt on Jim but I'll keep it in the vault for now. Truth is old Jim is a simple con, a perverted sexpat with a sordid past, a wolf in sheep's clothing if you will - so we'll happily tuck him into bed without a kiss.

The real heroes in this fight are guys with a history of putting some effort into running these types of services, and I'll point out that null and Fred are both on that list. Actual effort cunts with real sacrifices. You faggots yammer on about muh free speech but I'd love to know how much real effort any of you put into keeping clandestine services like maybe a p2p torrent search engine online, an encrypted pastebin, or other things of that nature. How much free code have you contributed to helping build out tools to aid the struggle. Anything? Ever been to court to defend yourself against a megacorp? I'm sure some of you guys have but remember that wringing your hands on a forum != effort.

So yeah that's it really. Out with the old, in with the new. Stand with the tech-illiterate Boomer slinging centralized 1997 broken web and fake news, I don't really care. When you see the next gen tech that actually delivers what you keep whinging about though, in all its shiny glory, remember this post.

Consider how shitty it'll be though if 8chan stays down so it isn't radicalising boomers to commit terrorism to demand the sooper sekrit report on deep state paedophiles
That's a rich seam of lulz, especially if one ends up doing something high profile like holding the DNC hostage while demanding they turn over the interdimensial reptillian child molesters

and that's not even touching the incel/alt right side


8chan is a rich catalyst of lulzy happenings, so I have an interest in seeing it continue. I mean there's the censorship thing too but if that dosen't do it for you, consider this
 
I just don't get why Qboomers get so much hate, I love them, they are so crazy and believe a tripfag its the funniest shit.

Hotwheels needs to be pushed down some stairs, nobody is offering a better alternative to 8ch and anyone trying to cash in on it being down is just as big a potato as the Bone goblin.
 
This notion that "it's bad that corporations can cancel but it's OK if private citizens do it" is the most breathtakingly stupid reasoning imaginable. All that does is lead to the private citizens who make up corporations acting as convenient covers for the corporation.
 
Swing and a miss. Not even one of my pseudonyms.



The answer is because they deserve it. And yes I agree we had that happen to us on day 1. What you need to do is get creative with moderation logic. So many options here including incentivizing mods/users with crypto. We didn't even get started on it.

Anyways I would forget about BlockChan, we're no longer interested in it and there are much more interesting things happening that incorporate some really fresh ideas with regards to moderation and board creation. I won't shill them here because quite frankly you all seem extremely disinterested and blasé with this entire concept. I did my best but I won't even try to swaddle you any further.
lol, I didn't expect you to take Blockchan down after you got critized for it, at all.
Oh I will absolutely say it mate. I will even BOLDFACE AND CAPS the shit for you since you seem like you need it --> I WANT TO FUCK HIS SHIT UP. I've really been asschapped with him ever since he stole 2ch, hid behind litigation with yet another shell corp, and then pulled the same trick with Fred. In webdev circles nothing is lower than stealing someone's domain. It makes you a pariah. I have more juicy dirt on Jim but I'll keep it in the vault for now. Truth is old Jim is a simple con, a perverted sexpat with a sordid past, a wolf in sheep's clothing if you will - so we'll happily tuck him into bed without a kiss.

The real heroes in this fight are guys with a history of putting some effort into running these types of services, and I'll point out that null and Fred are both on that list. Actual effort cunts with real sacrifices. You faggots yammer on about muh free speech but I'd love to know how much real effort any of you put into keeping clandestine services like maybe a p2p torrent search engine online, an encrypted pastebin, or other things of that nature. How much free code have you contributed to helping build out tools to aid the struggle. Anything? Ever been to court to defend yourself against a megacorp? I'm sure some of you guys have but remember that wringing your hands on a forum != effort.

So yeah that's it really. Out with the old, in with the new. Stand with the tech-illiterate Boomer slinging centralized 1997 broken web and fake news, I don't really care. When you see the next gen tech that actually delivers what you keep whinging about though, in all its shiny glory, remember this post.
Did you read your own rant you dumb boomer. You sound like some crazy sociopathic skitzophrenic manlet trying way too hard to fit in and propping up this event as if this is actually important in history when it isn't no one will remember or care about this in 5 years. Even if next gen Blockchain technology ends up being the forefront of the internet technology I won't remember your dumb rant.
 
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I just don't get why Qboomers get so much hate, I love them, they are so crazy and believe a tripfag its the funniest shit.

I want them to have a lolcow farm. I wonder how many of them even know what a trip is and that it is basically a way to sign a post with a statement that you are a giant attention whore and nothing you say should be taken seriously.
 
I want them to have a lolcow farm. I wonder how many of them even know what a trip is and that it is basically a way to sign a post with a statement that you are a giant attention whore and nothing you say should be taken seriously.
Wait, we already don't have a Q Anon thread on here? Seems like a great oppotunity for a fun "PLAGUED" in thread Community Watch.
 
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It would be pretty damn hard to take down an onion-based service that adequately moderated itself. I takes years of tracking real world evidence to take down a real criminal website. Problem is nobody wants to be bothered with using the tools already available to them.
 
It would be pretty damn hard to take down an onion-based service that adequately moderated itself. I takes years of tracking real world evidence to take down a real criminal website. Problem is nobody wants to be bothered with using the tools already available to them.

Even the biggest black market onion site was taken down by an early, stupid mistake by its founder. Ross Ulbricht blew it entirely by posting early posts related to Silk Road with an email address literally with his name in it (rossulbricht@gmail.com) and much like the South Korean pedo site recently busted, some part of the site was leaking its real world IP address, allowing it to be compromised.

There's some speculation and it's always at least worth considering that they may have obtained the initial information leading to compromising the site by some unknown classified means and then created a plausible collateral source to explain having it, but the specific errors they made, and Ulbricht's catastrophic blunder right at the outset, are indeed plausible.

Everyone who has been compromised using tor has, at least plausibly, been compromised using conventional methods that didn't attack tor itself but bypassed it. For instance, exploits against the Apache server are pretty common. Just as any site on the web running Apache, an onion-based server running it can be compromised. Unless that server is itself entirely blind as to its own location, you can get it to disgorge whatever it knows.

Most people don't know how to do this properly. I don't. And even those who do fuck up from time to time, sometimes even absurdly badly, like Ulbricht.
 
Even the biggest black market onion site was taken down by an early, stupid mistake by its founder. Ross Ulbricht blew it entirely by posting early posts related to Silk Road with an email address literally with his name in it (rossulbricht@gmail.com) and much like the South Korean pedo site recently busted, some part of the site was leaking its real world IP address, allowing it to be compromised.

There's some speculation and it's always at least worth considering that they may have obtained the initial information leading to compromising the site by some unknown classified means and then created a plausible collateral source to explain having it, but the specific errors they made, and Ulbricht's catastrophic blunder right at the outset, are indeed plausible.

Everyone who has been compromised using tor has, at least plausibly, been compromised using conventional methods that didn't attack tor itself but bypassed it. For instance, exploits against the Apache server are pretty common. Just as any site on the web running Apache, an onion-based server running it can be compromised. Unless that server is itself entirely blind as to its own location, you can get it to disgorge whatever it knows.

Most people don't know how to do this properly. I don't. And even those who do fuck up from time to time, sometimes even absurdly badly, like Ulbricht.

Apache is a piece of shit, the LAMP stack (which includes apache) is a joke and no one who cares about security uses that shit anymore. It has been shown time and time again to be as airtight as swiss cheese, making an email address with your name and social security number in it would be just as secure at this point.
 
Apache is a piece of shit, the LAMP stack (which includes apache) is a joke and no one who cares about security uses that shit anymore. It has been shown time and time again to be as airtight as swiss cheese, making an email address with your name and social security number in it would be just as secure at this point.

In SR's case it was actually (allegedly) the CAPTCHA that leaked the information.
 
Apache is a piece of shit, the LAMP stack (which includes apache) is a joke and no one who cares about security uses that shit anymore. It has been shown time and time again to be as airtight as swiss cheese, making an email address with your name and social security number in it would be just as secure at this point.

Shady Russian webservers are fucking better.
 
Even the biggest black market onion site was taken down by an early, stupid mistake by its founder. Ross Ulbricht blew it entirely by posting early posts related to Silk Road with an email address literally with his name in it (rossulbricht@gmail.com) and much like the South Korean pedo site recently busted, some part of the site was leaking its real world IP address, allowing it to be compromised.

There's some speculation and it's always at least worth considering that they may have obtained the initial information leading to compromising the site by some unknown classified means and then created a plausible collateral source to explain having it, but the specific errors they made, and Ulbricht's catastrophic blunder right at the outset, are indeed plausible.

Everyone who has been compromised using tor has, at least plausibly, been compromised using conventional methods that didn't attack tor itself but bypassed it. For instance, exploits against the Apache server are pretty common. Just as any site on the web running Apache, an onion-based server running it can be compromised. Unless that server is itself entirely blind as to its own location, you can get it to disgorge whatever it knows.

Most people don't know how to do this properly. I don't. And even those who do fuck up from time to time, sometimes even absurdly badly, like Ulbricht.
Took years of detective work to find Ulbricht's stupid small mistakes. In the case of something like an image board which isn't actually doing anything illegal, it should be pretty damn safe over TOR, and using a browser isn't exactly brain busting work.
 
So Fredrick got his hands on a video of an interview Jim did in the wake of the Christchurch stuff:

watkins.png

(https://archive.li/xz1bU)

Gotta hand it to him, Fredrick wasn't kidding when he says it's hilarious. Here's the vid, uploaded for posterity. Timestamps are right below.


00:00 Diana Prince from the GoldWater interviews Jim Watkins after the March 16 Christchurch attack
00:50 Question 1: "Can you explain what 8ch.net really is?"
01:00 Jim describes bulletin board systems. He's a big fan of Star Trek.
01:35 Apparently Diana "had a board on 8chan" too?
01:50 "8ch is like a living, and breathing, Wikipedia-style thing but it's more lively."
02:05 Question 2: "What drove you to buy and own 8ch.net?"
02:10 "8ch.net just kind of landed in my lap"
02:30 Question 3: "How do you feel about Muslims?"
02:35 Jim loves Muslims! He's been to Abu Dhabi, prayed at the mosque...
02:50 "Abu Dhabi—" "You know what I like the most about Muslims?"
03:05 Diana straight-up deadpans to the camera as Jim prattles on about how tolerant Abu Dhabi is
03:45 But there are some places in Abu Dhabi where they don't 'tolerate' wearing a bikini, Jim.
04:00 Question 4: "8ch.net has been dubbed as a haven for extremists. Is it?"
04:10 "A lot of their extreme talk is actually some of the most protected speech in America"
04:55 Question 5: "Jim, are you a white supremacist?"
05:05 "No I'm not a white supremacist, that would be...like...that's silly."
05:25 Diana's done her Internet research. "Jim, are you a Jew?"
05:35 No, Jim's a Lutheran Christian, actually.
05:45 Question 6: "Do you think we're having a war on religion?"
06:10 "Yes." And when Jim was a kid, the Catholics/Protestants/IRA were the extremists!
06:30 "Christians are killing the Muslims, and Muslims are killing the Christians...it's not right!"
07:00 Question 7: "How do you feel about your name being involved in the shooting?"
07:10 "They're making me notorious"
07:45 "[He] livestreams it on Mark Zuckerberg's Facebook. How come we're not name-dropping him?"
08:05 Jim has friends of all colors and creeds! "My company's a rainbow!"
08:15 "And you know how they're always talking about women in programming?" Jim's company is 50:50!
08:50 Jim's a populist. A populist! He's a normal guy!
09:00 Diana notes that some on 8chan don't like Jim. "It's like biting the hand that feeds you, but they're kids"
09:30 Jim's a gamer.
09:40 There's also a music board, and a pen board, and Jim's a big fan of pens...
09:50 And Jim is not anti-semetic. In fact, his first employer was Jewish. Great guy!
10:10 Jim never worked for Boeing, but his family did/does
10:30 Question 8: "Should we really be calling [immigrants] 'aliens'?"
10:40 "Yeah! Let's call a spade a spade! F**k you!" Jim flips the camera the bird
11:30 Jim doesn't subscribe to Pewdiepie, apparently.
11:45 Diana thanks Jim for his 'insight', tries to wrap up the interview
11:55 "Sorry I lost my temper" says Jim, as he recommences his tirade
12:05 Jim owns a hobby farm. You know what Bezos does for a hobby? Bezos builds spaceships!
12:30 Diana wraps up the interview, followed by a minute and a half of nothing.
 
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