Debate the differences and usefulness of many different kinds of ammo and weaponry

[MG-34]

9x39 is a special purpose round and the guns made to use it are special purpose guns issued exclusively to special purpose units. Why would Russia melt down or scrap the literal millions of AKM family rifles it has, destroy the billions of 7.62x39 rounds it has, and then spend however much money making new 9x39 pattern rifles and stocking armories with them?

That would be fine if there wasn't 40 years between 9x39 being developed as well as 50 years for the 5.45 round. Usually when something with significant advances is developed you cycle the old thing out for the new thing. 40/50 years is long enough to sell off old stocks as the US did when they deleted the M14 from mainline service.

Uhhhh OK? Yeah sidefolder stocks have a different rear trunnion than fixed stocks. If this is the best example you have then this shit is weaksauce brother, nobody is in the field scrounging around for a new rear trunnion for their rifle.

Both the AKS-74 and AK-74M are side folders.

You're misrepresenting the situation with regards to AKMs and AK74's and playing word games. The AK74 is the "standard issue rifle". The AKM is not. It's used when it is needed or when it's given to units that are not part of the regular Army. The sorts of guys that also don't wear digiflora camo.

There's a lot of images of squads of non SOF types using both variants. It's an issue that is easily preventable with standardization.

1/3 of the ammo in that list isn't used anymore.

I always hate how inconsistent this shit is. There's 3 flavors of 54R there for some reason, but only 1 of every other type. If you're going to show the full spectrum of ammo types show each variety of each caliber, like the US picture does (although it doesn't show everything either).

Neither picture is very good honestly.

He also used an image that doesn't have Russian inert/training rounds, omitted shotgun shells (Not sure if those off the wall KS-23 shells are still in use) as well as 9x19, which is in Russian use.

 

[Feline Supremacist]

1/3 of the ammo in that list isn't used anymore.

I always hate how inconsistent this shit is. There's 3 flavors of 54R there for some reason, but only 1 of every other type. If you're going to show the full spectrum of ammo types show each variety of each caliber, like the US picture does (although it doesn't show everything either).

Neither picture is very good honestly.

It really is hard to find visuals of ammo in current use, surprisingly.

 

[VargReallyDidNothingWrong]

That would be fine if there wasn't 40 years between 9x39 being developed as well as 50 years for the 5.45 round. Usually when something with significant advances is developed you cycle the old thing out for the new thing. 40/50 years is long enough to sell off old stocks as the US did when they deleted the M14 from mainline service.

Why fix something that, as the saying goes, isn't broken? What is there to gain by getting rid of 7.62x39? Like I said, the cartridge isn't obsolete. It's still out there killin' things. So why shitcan it for no reason?

Both the AKS-74 and AK-74M are side folders.

My bad, I must have misread AK74M as AK74. Point still stands though.

There's a lot of images of squads of non SOF types using both variants. It's an issue that is easily preventable with standardization.

It doesn't seem to be an issue though. Where have you seen anyone lamenting "we can't figure out logistics! we're sitting here with no ammo!"? I haven't seen a single report of this being a problem.

 

[ForTheHoard]

Sneedmore and .300blk are meme calibers

find a single example in the last 50 years of the US needing to issue riflemen two seperate cartridges

Like for the same caliber? Quick caliber swaps are kind of a modern thing and will be seen more frequently moving forward although I don't see any real battlefield advantage to it. There have been a lot of instances in the last 70 years where you and the guy beside you might be using different rifles of different calibers. 54R and .30 cal rifles were issued during Korea and I think up to Vietnam where the 5.56 started showing up.

If you're talking about variations of cartridges for the same caliber, that's somewhat common especially with belt fed weapons, .50 BMGs, cannons, and grenade launchers.

 

[VargReallyDidNothingWrong]

It really is hard to find visuals of ammo in current use, surprisingly.

You probably need to look for Russian language sites for that sort of thing. For example: https://копанина.рф/publ/1/avtomatnyj_5_45_mm_patron_kalibra_5_45kh39/17-1-0-736

Very neat site with lots of cool cutaways of various bullet designs and such.

 

[Stoneheart]

China's advantage is that it is a system of state capitalism, where all businesses are subservient to the state, and not the other way around. This allows China to project economically, because even 'private investment' in other countries is controlled by state interests. China has no need to project militarily.

China act like shady cardealers... they hook lowlifes with something shiny and have them pay 84 monthly rates for a used Camry...
The only difference is that they dont Repo the camry if you fail to pay, they just take a port or a copper mine....

From the actual brainlet who brought you "the US is probably going to be spinning up production of 5.45 ammo at Lake City" comes a new cope "the US military is exclusively standardized on one gun and we don't have several versions of the M14, M16 and M4 in service concurrently, along with half a dozen SMGs"

why isnt the US government just spinning up ammo production? more on that later....

It requires tooling. You need machines that turn brass or steel into cases of the size and shape you need. You need machines that make penetrators, lead cores, steel cores, copper jackets, etc. It takes time to set these up. Hornady makes 5.45 ammo in the US, I don't know if they're using their own cases or if they're buying cases from Russia or what, but that is THE ONLY brand I could find that makes 5.45 ammo. So the government would either need to get the tooling from them, or they'd need to make their own tooling.

the tooling isnt a problem... but you need brass or decent steel and chemicals, those are much harder to buy or produce right now....

Tooling is just the top of the iceberg. For large scale production, most of the fixed assets are purpose built- you can't just go to Joe's Infrastructure Warehouse & Bait Shop and buy a fully formed industrial production line. You need space, you need machines, you need tools, you need permits, and every single piece of this costs time and money.

Well the Government could get you the permit very fast if they want. the machines could be on a ship from germany or Japan next week. you would need to pay alot extra to skip the waiting list, but the production itself would be very fast. the issue is that nobody wants to pay for it and getting production ramped up NOW and supplylines established NOW is expensive and those rounds would come with a premium. Nato shell production could be ramped up in weeks if Nato is willing to pay a premium and to buy more basic shells like the russians do and not very complex range extended shells that use organic explovises.

 

[Makhno]

M2 besides the receiver

Tell me you don't know anything about how guns work some more.

 

[The Ugly One]

Why would Russia melt down or scrap the literal millions of AKM family rifles it has, destroy the billions of 7.62x39 rounds it has, and then spend however much money making new 9x39 pattern rifles and stocking armories with them?

Because it's been an outdated relic for half a century now.

 

[VargReallyDidNothingWrong]

Because it's been an outdated relic for half a century now.

The Mosin Nagant rifle is an outdated relic. You could argue the SKS is an outdated relic and I'd probably agree to that as well. A 7.62x39 AK is just as functional and just as capable now as it was 50 years ago.

No it's not flat shooting out to 600 yards. No it doesn't have le poison bullets. But it will go through a tree or a thin wall and really fuck up the guy behind it. And it's perfectly accurate out to 300 yards which is all the range you need most of the time.

 

[Lev El Shmeckle]

The M2 and MG3 are very good weapons that have withstood the test of time with minor modifications such as the M2A1 and rechambering the orginal MG-42 to NATO standard and lowering the cyclic rate of fire. The US and German militaries don't field them alongside near identical weapon systems and the Germans don't maintain stocks of MG-42s along MG3s to further stain logistics unnecessarily so I don't see a comparison.

The only variants of the M16 in active service are the M16A2/A4 and the M4/M4A1 besides some unicorn variants with SOF and maybe some M16A3s still held by the US Navy. The orginal M16s and M16A1s as well as the CAR-15 can't even be used due to compatibility issues with the barrels and M855/M855A1 ammunition where the rounds will tumble with the older barrel profiles and were converted, sold or destroyed.

Sir, for the weapons expert, you're very, very #NAFO4MuhTransLyfe sounding Karen.

Oh, nevermind, you are the Ukraine supporter. My bad, I have terribly mistook you for an actual human being, I'm so sorry!!!

 

[St.Davis]

Sneedmore and .300blk are meme calibers and more comparable to the Russian 9x39 round. The 7.62x39 round is obsoleted by 9x39 for the purposes you mentioned. There are several compatibility issues between AKM/AK74 variants such as the AK74M needing a different rear trunnion than the AKS-74 where with M16/M4 variants a receiver can easily accept whatever is in mass use. On your last point can you find a single example in the last 50 years of the US needing to issue riflemen two seperate cartridges for their standard issue rifle/carbine?

As far as I'm aware the Russians make use of 7.62x39 in basically the same capacity as the US makes use of 7.62x51. Frontline units use 5.56/5.45 though specialists (Both armies) and reservists (Russia, primarily, though I expect US reservists still have EBRs and similar) make use of 7.62. It isnt as though squads are armed with a mix of AK-74 and AKM variants, to my knowledge.

Both the US and Russia use 7.62 in machine gun platforms, the US uses it for designated marksmen, and special forces do/did make use of SCAR-H and other 7.62 weaponry. The US is going to have a significant period of multi-ammo usage if/when they switch to 6.8 (Which they do seem to be doing, first proper delivery is later this year, with a current plan of 107 000 rifles) as they have so many extant 5.56 rifles, and billions of rounds.

I think you may be grasping at straws to a degree here.

 

[SleeplessEcho]

The separation of the Ukrainian War Meagthread was working so wonderfully until a bunch of retarded spergs had to invite a profoundly retarded sperg to come over here, so they could all sperg and piss and fling shit at each other.

The last two pages of this thread are practically worthless. Can you just not engage with each other, or if you do, go have a hatefuck in your DMs or something? Please?

 

[MG-34]

Tell me you don't know anything about how guns work some more.

It's literately the name of the part, retard.

 

[VargReallyDidNothingWrong]

As far as I'm aware the Russians make use of 7.62x39 in basically the same capacity as the US makes use of 7.62x51.

7.62 NATO is closer to 7.62x54R - the US uses it in DMR and LMG platforms, so does Russia.

The point about the new M5 being adopted at the same time as there's still widespread use of the M16/M4 is correct and is exactly the sort of thing @MG-34 is adamant could and would never be allowed to happen in the US military because it's an issue. Weird.

The separation of the Ukrainian War Meagthread was working so wonderfully until a bunch of retarded spergs had to invite a profoundly retarded sperg to come over here, so they could all sperg and piss and fling shit at each other.

The last two pages of this thread are practically worthless. Can you just not engage with each other, or if you do, go have a hatefuck in your DMs or something? Please?

I think the discussion so far has honestly been pretty civil and hasn't (for the most part) deteriorated into "you're a nigger kill yourself" like it usually does. If it bothers you report it, I am not going to, because I'm actually enjoying myself.

 

[MG-34]

7.62 NATO is closer to 7.62x54R - the US uses it in DMR and LMG platforms, so does Russia.

The point about the new M5 being adopted at the same time as there's still widespread use of the M16/M4 is correct and is exactly the sort of thing @MG-34 is adamant could and would never be allowed to happen in the US military because it's an issue. Weird.

The M5 is a POS in my opinion and is the same shitshow the M14 was when it rolled out (inferior to its competitors). SIG obviously is paying the right people to force it into service. If the US is running both M4 and M5 type rifles in 40 years I would give it the same criticism.

 

[VargReallyDidNothingWrong]

The M5 is a POS in my opinion and is the same shitshow the M14 was when it rolled out (inferior to its competitors). SIG obviously is paying the right people to force it into service. If the US is running both M4 and M5 type rifles in 40 years I would give it the same criticism.

Nothing about the M5 makes sense to me. The fact that it needs some sort of weird bi-metal case just to keep from exploding is enough for me to say maybe this isn't the greatest idea. That shit CANNOT be cheap for the taxpayer.

And I don't know what the lifespan of the parts is going to be when you've got 80k PSI chamber pressures and however much muzzle velocity that thing makes.

It really does come off as yet another military-industrial-complex grift to sift money from the American people into the pockets of contractors.

 

[Scotched up Scott]

The M5 is a POS in my opinion and is the same shitshow the M14 was when it rolled out (inferior to its competitors). SIG obviously is paying the right people to force it into service. If the US is running both M4 and M5 type rifles in 40 years I would give it the same criticism.

the m5 won mostly because its competitors were shit im sorry. no way the US was going to flip its script from the last 50 years and get a bullpup and the Textron was overly complex.

Nothing about the M5 makes sense to me. The fact that it needs some sort of weird bi-metal case just to keep from exploding is enough for me to say maybe this isn't the greatest idea. That shit CANNOT be cheap for the taxpayer.

And I don't know what the lifespan of the parts is going to be when you've got 80k PSI chamber pressures and however much muzzle velocity that thing makes.

It really does come off as yet another military-industrial-complex grift to sift money from the American people into the pockets of contractors.

its mostly the DOD has a stick up its ass because 5.56 is starting to show its age and it has "reportedly" reduced lethality and its armor penetration has been pushed about as far as it will go.

 

[St.Davis]

7.62 NATO is closer to 7.62x54R - the US uses it in DMR and LMG platforms, so does Russia.

The point about the new M5 being adopted at the same time as there's still widespread use of the M16/M4 is correct and is exactly the sort of thing @MG-34 is adamant could and would never be allowed to happen in the US military because it's an issue. Weird.


I think the discussion so far has honestly been pretty civil and hasn't (for the most part) deteriorated into "you're a nigger kill yourself" like it usually does. If it bothers you report it, I am not going to, because I'm actually enjoying myself.

Sorry, you're right. My post was very unclear; the second paragraph was referring to 7.62x54, the first was referring to 7.62x39. (Though the Russians do still use 7.62x39 in the RPK/RPD LMGs in some capacity, which I got sidetracked thinking about while typing.)

 

[Makhno]

6+ months from decision to first off the assembly line

That isn't even the case in wartime. You are looking at lead times of 2-3 years minimum for most new production lines to simply get the tooling and staff in place and operating at a level where the rejection level for parts in acceptable. Currently you are looking probably at 5-10 years since there is both a drain of skills, factories, and machinery in the west thanks to the boomer scum importing it all overseas.

can't even be used due to compatibility issues

Your idiocy is the gift that keeps giving.

the AK variants all run into compatability issues greater than the American M16 family. Why even bother maintaining 7.62x39 weapons when the 5.45 round is superior and Russia had several generations of peacetime to replace every AKM?

@Janny please give this retarded pig fucker his pink triangle

The 7.62x39 round is obsoleted

Better tell that to all the nations that have trillions of rounds cumulatively of that stockpiled that some faggot says it is obsolete so they should just ignore all the logistic advantages to maintaining a weapon system that is the one of the cheapest to produce with the largest ammunition stockpiles on the planet that even third world retards can pick up and make function with little maintenance. Also are you implying the AK-47 is the same platform as the AK-74 are you that much of a retarded faggot?

On your last point can you find a single example in the last 50 years of the US needing to issue riflemen two seperate cartridges for their standard issue rifle/carbine

Every time the US has gone to war since 1980's we introduce some 7.62 rifles into front line squads, especially recon/SOF, from breaking out the old drill M-14s in the 90's to convert them to pseudo DMRs, to the AR-10/HK derivatives from the sandbox and later additions of the SCAR. Also America does this thing where the belt fed automatic weapons are all 7.62 aside from the M249 and its derivatives. Not to mention some of the guys who went over the wire who humped an extra stripped AK, or who looted one, in case there was any potential for their resupply to be cut off. Also there is an example from just last year with the XM7 which will be integrated at a company level leaving many battalions still having soldiers operating both platforms for some time if integration goes as planned. Personally I don't think the new cartridge or platform will jive with all the women and weak ass bitches they have been inducting so it probably will fail but it still is currently happening you absolute retard.

 

[Stoneheart]

The point about the new M5 being adopted at the same time as there's still widespread use of the M16/M4 is correct and is exactly the sort of thing @MG-34 is adamant could and would never be allowed to happen in the US military because it's an issue. Weird.

thats because the DoD is full of retarded trannies...

The M5 is a POS in my opinion and is the same shitshow the M14 was when it rolled out (inferior to its competitors). SIG obviously is paying the right people to force it into service. If the US is running both M4 and M5 type rifles in 40 years I would give it the same criticism.

The problem is that the US never had a good battle rifle... and now they have a strange heavy assault rifle and a light assault rifle that is to weak to shot anything but goatfuckers...

its mostly the DOD has a stick up its ass because 5.56 is starting to show its age and it has "reportedly" reduced lethality and its armor penetration has been pushed about as far as it will go.

but full sized bullets are so heavy....

It's been like 2 weeks since we've had any info about Romania/Moldova/Transnistria. What's going on there, I wonder?

the romanians stole everything that was send there, than the gypsis stole everything but the shoes from the reporters who were send there to report on it.