r/antiwork - Yes, it's exactly what it sounds like.

[ConspicuousArdiunoDue]

I think in the best of possible worlds UBI is needed to alleviate the transition to the automation age.

UBI would probably be one of the worst things you could possibly do in any situation. Not only does it give money for no value, but it encourages the same mentality as the current welfare does to its recipients. If anything, if you'd want to put money into peoples pockets below a certain income amount, a reverse income tax regime would probably be best.

Also with all of the talk of automation, I really think it's a lot of people who really don't look at history and realize that as people are freed from doing one type of work, a new sector will pop up with the excess workers looking for new jobs. Automation takes away fast food workers? A possible new employment for fast food workers in entry level could be an entrepreneur who takes advantage of this excess worker problem and revitalizes public service and hires them to clean areas in the city under a city contract. Cheap work, good contract, make bank. Automation is now prevalent? Go to community college to service these things, entirely new and huge sector ripe for the taking. Up the employment level, you could see trucks being automated and truck drivers being forced out, but when the trucks park, who will watch them? When they fuck up, who will correct them? When they need gas, who will fill them up? Well now there's a few things that a truck driver does that an automated system couldn't do, so maybe you'd see a shift on the work to a support role of the automated driving (even though in my opinion, I don't think you'd see companies get fully rid of the human inside the cab, just for liability reasons).

Idk, I just think there's way too much doom porn about automation. This could just be my entrepreneur inside me talking, but not enough perspective is out there about how people could take advantage of the situation to create more value, instead it's all about the collapse of society and all that.

 

[libRT]

UBI would probably be one of the worst things you could possibly do in any situation. Not only does it give money for no value, but it encourages the same mentality as the current welfare does to its recipients. If anything, if you'd want to put money into peoples pockets below a certain income amount, a reverse income tax regime would probably be best.

Also with all of the talk of automation, I really think it's a lot of people who really don't look at history and realize that as people are freed from doing one type of work, a new sector will pop up with the excess workers looking for new jobs. Automation takes away fast food workers? A possible new employment for fast food workers in entry level could be an entrepreneur who takes advantage of this excess worker problem and revitalizes public service and hires them to clean areas in the city under a city contract. Cheap work, good contract, make bank. Automation is now prevalent? Go to community college to service these things, entirely new and huge sector ripe for the taking. Up the employment level, you could see trucks being automated and truck drivers being forced out, but when the trucks park, who will watch them? When they fuck up, who will correct them? When they need gas, who will fill them up? Well now there's a few things that a truck driver does that an automated system couldn't do, so maybe you'd see a shift on the work to a support role of the automated driving (even though in my opinion, I don't think you'd see companies get fully rid of the human inside the cab, just for liability reasons).

Idk, I just think there's way too much doom porn about automation. This could just be my entrepreneur inside me talking, but not enough perspective is out there about how people could take advantage of the situation to create more value, instead it's all about the collapse of society and all that.

What worries me with 'reverse tax' is that as you said, gives money for no value, which reduces demand for labour (less money to pay employees, and why work if you don't have to). As nothing is produced but population capacity is increased you're kicking the problem down the road and making it worse the next time it comes around. Like with charity (handouts, not building wells etc) to Africa.

I'm not sure it would be a problem though, I think money won't have as much value if we reach a point where automation is in full swing. Maybe more money gets put into arts & leisure stuff. Getting there is going to be chaotic. After that you have to worry about maintenance.

 

[ConspicuousArdiunoDue]

What worries me with 'reverse tax' is that as you said, gives money for no value, which reduces demand for labour (less money to pay employees, and why work if you don't have to). As nothing is produced but population capacity is increased you're kicking the problem down the road and making it worse the next time it comes around. Like with charity (handouts, not building wells etc) to Africa.

I agree with that too, but the thing with the reverse income tax regime is that it would use existing infrastructure and get rid of an entire bloated department in the government, or prevent the creation of a UBI office on top of that. I only say a reverse income tax would be a better thing because obviously it would be nearly politically impossible to dismantle a system that gives payments out to the poor in the current state of US politics.

Basically, the reverse income tax idea is a sly idea to start pulling jenga blocks out of the welfare state by getting rid of the need for a completely independent government organ entirely for that purpose. Also, we already give income tax credits; we would also be simplifying the numbers keeping by just making the reverse income tax a credit.

Also, we see from this graph, that even under a progressive income tax regime, a negative income tax regime could be set up to ensure that people don't feel as though their benefits are being lost as they transition from tax takers to tax payers. The current problem with the US's welfare program is that it has a gap between paying and taking, leaving the people on welfare to feel like they are losing quality of life by attempting to leave the welfare's benefits. (A phenomena termed the "welfare trap" or "welfare gap")

This of course also means we can get rid of old age payments like social security, and other income guaranteeing policies and bring them under a single policy that can be more easily politically dealt with. In the long run, it would just be a better idea imo.

 

[libRT]

I agree with that too, but the thing with the reverse income tax regime is that it would use existing infrastructure and get rid of an entire bloated department in the government, or prevent the creation of a UBI office on top of that. I only say a reverse income tax would be a better thing because obviously it would be nearly politically impossible to dismantle a system that gives payments out to the poor in the current state of US politics.

Basically, the reverse income tax idea is a sly idea to start pulling jenga blocks out of the welfare state by getting rid of the need for a completely independent government organ entirely for that purpose. Also, we already give income tax credits; we would also be simplifying the numbers keeping by just making the reverse income tax a credit.

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Also, we see from this graph, that even under a progressive income tax regime, a negative income tax regime could be set up to ensure that people don't feel as though their benefits are being lost as they transition from tax takers to tax payers. The current problem with the US's welfare program is that it has a gap between paying and taking, leaving the people on welfare to feel like they are losing quality of life by attempting to leave the welfare's benefits. (A phenomena termed the "welfare trap" or "welfare gap")

This of course also means we can get rid of old age payments like social security, and other income guaranteeing policies and bring them under a single policy that can be more easily politically dealt with. In the long run, it would just be a better idea imo.

Definitely better than UBI, and looks good short term, but what is compensating for the increasing downward pressure applied to all incomes as the population in the lower bracket grows? Over time that red/green line will slide down the Y axis and no one will be happy after taxes increase so much that capital flight happens. I think this is one of the core problems with socialism, is that the process of taking from the rich and giving to the poor eventually feeds its own demise, because it doesn't solve the problem and just puts an extra burden on the future making it more difficult to solve until eventually the burden is too great and the system cannot continue as is.

 

[ConspicuousArdiunoDue]

Definitely better than UBI, and looks good short term, but what is compensating for the increasing downward pressure applied to all incomes as the population in the lower bracket grows? Over time that red/green line will slide down the Y axis and no one will be happy after taxes increase so much that capital flight happens. I think this is one of the core problems with socialism, is that the process of taking from the rich and giving to the poor eventually feeds its own demise, because it doesn't solve the problem and just puts an extra burden on the future making it more difficult to solve until eventually the burden is too great and the system cannot continue as is.

Yeah, exactly. I try to have hope that if negative income tax was implemented, it would be in a time limited form, say 5 years to get to a system of welfare to a system of no welfare. But welfare today was supposed to be gone only a decade after its inception in the first place, so I don't have much hope. Any form of welfare is a bad idea imo, and Frankfurt plus Keynesian (both classical modern market theory and new Keynesians) economic models are terrible failures that don't account for the downward pressures that you described.

If I were to get together with the boys to start a system from scratch with infinite political capital, I can guarantee there'd be no welfare system or a redistributionary model.

 

[Kongo-Müller]

Antiwork now has its dedicated rDrama parody: https://old.reddit.com/r/noworking/

It's only been around for a day, so let's see where this is going and if that will mine some good salt.

 

[ConspicuousArdiunoDue]

The only reason we have comfy winters is because people work during them, so I guess they're just willing to do away with comfy winters just so they don't have to work.

 

[Psychotron]

Let me pitch it this way.

UBI, but we sterilize anyone who takes it.

 

[Kongo-Müller]

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The only reason we have comfy winters is because people work during them, so I guess they're just willing to do away with comfy winters just so they don't have to work.

But then you are missing out on subsisting on moldy grain spiced with rat shit, praying that you have chopped enough wood last summer to last through this winter, losing teeth to scurvy after having had a crappy diet for three months with way too little vitamine C, and dying of dysentery.

 

[TerribleIdeas™]

I'm committing some serious necromancy, so apologies for that, but I'd lost track of the thread, for a while.

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This was in a crosspost from r/Australia.

Unsurprisingly, anti-workers went apeshit over it.

https://old.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/et24vs/a_job_listing_from_a_local_post_office/

I'm amazed the commie mutants didn't lose their shit over "Applicant may be of either gender.

It's funny how the subreddit's "reading resources" basically looped to the boomer argument that "if you're sitting at a desk, it ain't a real job!"

But at least these boomers actually were willing to do jobs.

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It's not "the service sector" that's the problem, it's specific areas where bureaucratic bloat is out-of-control, like "The Department of Diversity, Equity, Inclusion", regardless of the entity it's infesting. Ohio State University was just discovered to be paying $13+ million dollars for 70-some flunkies with various bullshit titles, within a "Department for Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion." That's apparently enough to pay for something around 1200 tuitions.

The same shit has infested every public and private entity that has anything like an HR department, and it's a low/zero-value infestation that detracts from productivity, as far as I can tell. Imagine the cliche of 14 guys with white hardhats surrounding 1 roadcrew guy digging a hole, except it's all assholes that took "Critical Studies degrees", and not project management, engineering, or something at least related to the products/services in question.

I'd be curious to know tbh. Those are coveted jobs that need heavy equipment operation licenses to work on (if you're American).

There's tons of places where have a pulse, no serious substance abuse issues, and reasonable vision, is enough to get on with the county, or a county-level contractor, and working your way into a bobcat, zoomboom, picker-truck, or whatever.

thats also something they can do already. They could crowdfund cooperative the same way they crowdfund for hrt and videogames or start a company and make every employee a stock holder or could just partner with other commies and each get equal shares on every project. They won't though, whining on the couch and dreaming of the government taking other people's property away and eliminating scarcity via magic is easier,

Commies hate the Amish, and they've fucked up every attempt at a commune, with the exception of Slab City, which is a catastrophe, nonetheless.

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"I only make $16/hr."
That's because your degree is garbage with a low return-on-investment.

Stores throwing out unsold but edible food instead of giving it away or doing literally anything with it is insane. I understand giving it away devalues the product they sell, but surely something can be done.

The amount of water wasted at a typical restaurant is almost beyond imagining. Letting taps run for hours to defrost meat, using gallons and gallons to cool down pasta, all of it going down the drain.

The issue there is that there's liability concerns, if you give it away, even if it's only past the "Best Before Date", and hasn't reached the expiry date. Pretty much every jurisdiction has laws to that effect.

Spoiler: Here's some memes relevant to r/antiwork

 

[LinkinParkxNaruto[AMV]]

and they've fucked up every attempt at a commune, with the exception of Slab City, which is a catastrophe, nonetheless.

nevertheless thats a freedom they currently have, they always have the option to just try and fail or succed on their own and put their logic to the test, but instead of counting their losses they insist on this idea that everyone else needs to forcefully abide by an ideology they can't even work out on the smallest possible scale.

 

[TerribleIdeas™]

nevertheless thats a freedom they currently have, they always have the option to just try and fail or succed on their own and put their logic to the test, but instead of counting their losses they insist on this idea that everyone else needs to forcefully abide by an ideology they can't even work out on the smallest possible scale.

It's still ironic that they have that freedom, and despise the Amish, who are the only functional example of communalism, barring the Hutterites/Mennonites, which are only different because of how much technology they'll accept into the community. Sure, r/antiwork (and commies in general) absolutely have the freedom to get off the grid, and form communes, but as demonstrated by CHAZ, CHOP, and whatever the Black Hammer retards were calling their squatting on the Ute Reservation in Arizona, they expect everyone else to do the work, so they can survive off the product.

At least pimps offer their herd protection, and some drugs, for taking in 90% of the money made by turning tricks; the r/antiwork commies don't even appear willing to make their own tendies, from what I can see.

 

[TurdFondler]

Amish and Hutter/Menno colonies are very hierarchical and extremely patriarchal. It's not an egalitarian communist utopia like most communes try to be, and that's the reason they've stuck around.

Regarding the LLC tool counting thing, I think it has something to do with assets and write offs. Tools over X amount can be written off but the write off process is pro-rated over some years and I'm guessing the amount of taxes paid by the LLC changes with the depreciating tool write offs. It seems like bossman didn't dump everything into a spreadsheet or quickbooks and did it manually year over year. It can be a nightmare to track depreciating assets and there are special software packages for it.

 

[Shaka Brah]

Amish and Hutter/Menno colonies are very hierarchical and extremely patriarchal. It's not an egalitarian communist utopia like most communes try to be, and that's the reason they've stuck around.

Regarding the LLC tool counting thing, I think it has something to do with assets and write offs. Tools over X amount can be written off but the write off process is pro-rated over some years and I'm guessing the amount of taxes paid by the LLC changes with the depreciating tool write offs. It seems like bossman didn't dump everything into a spreadsheet or quickbooks and did it manually year over year. It can be a nightmare to track depreciating assets and there are special software packages for it.

The Hudderites are also not remotely anti-mercantile or even anti-tech. I looked into them once and they operate a few surprisingly large businesses that are very modern. Think mail-order furniture and local mechanic services. They gladly participate in the economy while also not participating in society.

The only thing you could pin down that they actually hate about capitalism is moneylending. And that's purely because it's a sin.

 

[TurdFondler]

The Hutterites are decades ahead of everyone else in small manufacturing. The were some of the first to adopt CAD, CNC, high pressure water and laser. If you want quality millwork made to spec, get a Hutterite.

They're insular and they have some rules they have to follow about colony size. I think their gripe is about usury specifically, so banks offer them the same deal they do to muslims, namely rolling the projected interest into the loan. Somehow that doesn't make God mad.

Even the Amish aren't as anti-tech as they're made out to be. Their stipulation is that there be no lines coming in from outside. So the fuckers rule lawyered around that by running colonies on compressed air. All their kitchen appliances like blenders are converted to pneumatic.

Either way, that's the glorious communist workers paradise. Drab, simple clothing, limited libations and getting up at the crack of dawn to do manual labor.

 

[chiobu]

antiwork fags are upset over a meme on r/coaxedintoasnafu

r/coaxedintoasnafu - "we're not anti-work, we just don't want to work"

758 votes and 363 comments so far on Reddit

www.reddit.com

"we're not anti-work, we just don't want to work" : coaxedintoasnafu

archived 9 Dec 2021 07:55:59 UTC

archive.md

Many such cases!

 

[Friendly Primarina]

Spoiler: Here's some memes relevant to r/antiwork

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When did rightist memes become just as unfunny as leftist memes? This is really sad to see.

 

[TurdFondler]

Redditors are just completely unfunny, left or right leaning.

 

[eternal dog mongler]

Amish and Hutter/Menno colonies are very hierarchical and extremely patriarchal. It's not an egalitarian communist utopia like most communes try to be, and that's the reason they've stuck around.

And the whole going to church three times a week thing, which is how they maintain social cohesion.

The crux of the problem with internet leftists is that they're opposed to the idea that people can have obligations to the society they live in.

 

[Coolio55]

Let me pitch it this way.

UBI, but we sterilize anyone who takes it.

This and they're also not allowed to have any opinions.

And the whole going to church three times a week thing, which is how they maintain social cohesion.

The crux of the problem with internet leftists is that they're opposed to the idea that people can have obligations to the society they live in.

Oh no. They're perfectly fine with obligations, just obligations for other people.
Imagine the horror of a society where you're not obligated to humour the creepy fetishists/paedophiles at all times.