Hazbin Hotel / Helluva Boss Thread - Now a Griefing Thread

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Do you believe that this series will turn to shit?


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I feel like there's a big elephant in the room that the story can't shurk off till later to explain, and its a very simple question. What does it mean to be "redeemed". How do you get " redeemed"? Cause all of the scenes seem to point to "be nicer, be more trusting, ext." Which is very jarring after you hear Adem the frat boy talk cause its very clear he doesn't have those traits.

Seems for hell, there's nothing about 'repenting', nothing about 'feeling sorry for the sins/people you've hurt". Honestly that needs clarification cause its the very base line of the story's premises.
Chalk that up to another causality of the terrible pacing. Viv just has to introduce every single character she possibly can and that doesn't leave much time to dwell on such unimportant questions like basic worldbuilding that ties into what's supposed to be the core premise.
 
In the first four eps, this was the only real defining character moment for Charlie that we got:


That's it. Five seconds. The rest of the time, she's either monologuing useless exposition, or reacting to someone else's characterization. This is the only time we see her take a real stand on anything. Too bad it's cut short by Angel and she just tearfully flounces out. I wanted to see her kick someone's ass.
Not to sound like a broken record, but literally what is there to stop Charlie from swatting Angel aside and burning Val to death on the spot instead of letting all these horny twinks talk to her like that?
 
Chalk that up to another causality of the terrible pacing. Viv just has to introduce every single character she possibly can and that doesn't leave much time to dwell on such unimportant questions like basic worldbuilding that ties into what's supposed to be the core premise.
this has been an ongoing problem of Viv's since Zoophobia. here's a compilation of my previous posts in the thread explaining why:
TL;DR - Viv made ZP a convoluted and character filled mess instead of what should've been a focused main character-driven story.

Zoophobia the webcomic was honestly one of the biggest wastes of potential I've ever seen in any piece of fiction. It was such a shame too because the intro, here to here, in terms of setting up a world and getting you invested in it, is honestly pretty brilliant - and yes I still stand by that. It sets up the main concept excellently, introduces a bunch of characters to you that you'd want to know more about, and has a pretty good balance of comedy (Cameron reacting to the world around her), mystery (the woman with the apple) and drama ("So I'm stuck here?"/the bit towards the end with Zechariah comforting Cameron).

So imagine, you're an impressionable teen and you're blown away by said introduction. You're hooked, and can't wait to see more of the adventures of this zoophobic counselor in the crazy world of animals. What's the next story arc gonna be?!

Screenshot 2020-11-30 182344.png

A high school couple.....with the male forgetting their....anniversary? First of all, this is not how teenagers work. Secondly, weren't we just following Cameron a second ago? It is here where the main problem of ZP starts to rear its ugly head: a complete and utter lack of focus.

One minute, OK, we're following Cameron again, good. Next minute we're with the kangaroo again. Huh? Next minute we're with the demon kid (whose name is Damien, real original there Viv), and he has a robot...companion? Who can transform or some shit?
Screenshot 2020-11-30 183610.png

And finally, we're back to Cameron again. It’s frustrating that ZP hits on a genuinely interesting story in Cameron, but doesn’t seem committed to it, instead plopping us in with a bunch of characters with no proper introduction and no reason to care about them (again, doubly frustrating considering Chapter 1 got it so right). Somebody could take the key components of Zoophobia and make a genuinely good story without having to discard many of them. It needed better pacing. It needed to better understand the story it was telling and be more aware of where it needed to go. There is a decent comic buried here, but it occupies about 25% of its run. I’d never, ever recommend it to another human being, but if you were forced to read it you’d likely find bits to enjoy.

Somewhere, in another universe, Cameron is the main character in a great story about overcoming your fears, meeting new people, and finding your place in the world. Maybe it was the project that put Vivienne on the map, maybe it wasn't. If you do end up reading Zoophobia at some point — maybe because you're interested in Viv's past work — pay attention to the bits involving Cameron. See her interactions with the people around her. Her dialogue. There’s a character there that Vivienne Medrano brought to life in spite of the script, in spite of the comic, in spite of anything going on around her. Pay attention to Cameron. Because she's exactly where the real ZP's buried.

A kangaroo complains that a purple and orange whatever-the-fuck forgot their high school anniversary while a pink demon robot nanny dukes it out with a bunch of police officers because her demon brat got in trouble. That's the Zoophobia we got.

A young, neurotic woman slowly but surely overcomes her fears while meeting all sorts of exotic, memorable characters and uncovering the mystery of the world she unwittingly finds herself in. That's the Zoophobia that we should've got instead.
She's had plenty of time, though. Like others ITT have said, Viv had a whole season to develop Millie, and yet she did jack shit with her. In fact, hot take:
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Millie is to Helluva what Cameron is to Zoophobia: a character who has tons of untapped potential, which doesn't get explored because outside of the one character trait (Cameron's being that she's afraid of animals), she's just.....there. Which in Cameron's case, was even more egregious because she was supposed to be the main fucking character.
Lol the cognitive dissonance on this bitch. To bring up Zoophobia again (I know I keep harping on it, but it's her earliest work and has a lot of the same issues that the Hellaverse has and then some, so it's pertinent to the discussion, fuck you):
View attachment 4996794
Zill (the orange-purple chimera thing) and Kayla's (the kangaroo) anniversary relationship drama (THIS. IS. NOT. HOW. TEENAGERS. ACT. VIV.) was literally the main fucking conflict of Chapter 2.
View attachment 4996866
Soooo, you'd think this is where Cameron would come in, right? You know, the main fucking character of the story, and where the title of the comic itself comes from? Maybe either Zill or Kayla, remembering that she's the new guidance counselor, get advice from her, which they comically misinterpret or something, which leads to wacky hijinks? Or maybe this is one place where Cameron is woefully out of her depth on, causing her to give advice to either one that, while well-meaning, is actually terrible, also leading to wacky hijinks. See? This way, all 3 characters get developed, while also fleshing out the world a bit, and not straying away from the premise that brought people to the comic in the first place.
.......
View attachment 4996906
Naaaah, that'd actually make sense. Let's instead have a random vampire attack the school for no reason, and have their relationship be patched up with absolutely no involvement from Cameron whatsoever, leaving her to do nothing but piss her pants off in her own little corner, because LOL GINGER WAHMAN SCURRED OF THE FURRIES, ISN'T THAT FUNNI?!
View attachment 4997126
I swear, ZP is one of the properties I most wish was in the hands of a more competent writer.
 
I feel like there's a big elephant in the room that the story can't shurk off till later to explain, and its a very simple question. What does it mean to be "redeemed". How do you get " redeemed"? Cause all of the scenes seem to point to "be nicer, be more trusting, ext." Which is very jarring after you hear Adem the frat boy talk cause its very clear he doesn't have those traits.

Seems for hell, there's nothing about 'repenting', nothing about 'feeling sorry for the sins/people you've hurt". Honestly that needs clarification cause its the very base line of the story's premises.

The pilot made it seem like its like rehabilitating you into a good person and that eventually you wouldnt "match" the standards of Hell anymore and would get transported into Heaven. It was all theory in universe but Charlie was willing to try.

Now, that would work if Heaven was kept mostly ambiguious and mysterious, that way we could assume the exterminations were a necessary evil (tho I could imagine an angel enjoying this too much but they are the exception, possibly foreshadowing a new fallen angel) and that they would accept "redeemed" souls with open arms.
 
Chalk that up to another causality of the terrible pacing. Viv just has to introduce every single character she possibly can and that doesn't leave much time to dwell on such unimportant questions like basic worldbuilding that ties into what's supposed to be the core premise.
I think pretty much all of Viv's writing more focused on showing the characters than telling any actual story.

It feels like she just wants to go pure slice of life, but refuses to do so, and instead just keeps piling on characters we know nothing about, even diehard fans who watched the pilot have no idea who Camilia and Zestial are supposed to be or why they're important, now. They're just there to curse and fuck, and occasionally have some serious, but ultimately childish angst that's completely out of place, while any questions about the world or anybody's backstory just go unanswered.

Seriously, where the fuck did the Happy Hotel come from? Who was running this fuckhuge hotel at some point that has a wrecked boat attatched to it? I assumed she inherited it from Lucifer or Lilith, but it's never properly explained, even when all it would take would be a quick line like "Oh, hey, how's the hotel we gave you doing?"

I fully believe the only reason Helluva Boss has an even semi-coherent story and original premise is just because Brandon spent exactly one season trying to tardwrangle Viv's ideas before realizing it just wasn't worth it.
 
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I know it's popular to hate on the show but this song is a certified banger
This, as well as the Vox and Alastor duet were the only songs I actually liked listening to, so much so that I replayed both of them to hear them again. Pretty much all the other songs in Episodes 1 and 2 I ended skipping through when I first watched both of them.
 
In the first four eps, this was the only real defining character moment for Charlie that we got:


That's it. Five seconds. The rest of the time, she's either monologuing useless exposition, or reacting to someone else's characterization. This is the only time we see her take a real stand on anything. Too bad it's cut short by Angel and she just tearfully flounces out. I wanted to see her kick someone's ass.

I'm getting character and moral blueballs from this like you would not believe. Finally, a moment for Charlie to be a character in her own show and show her real nature, and it's nothing but a glimmer.

If this is some promise for later payoff, that she fucking snaps or something, great, but, Vivz.

At this rate the best we can expect is maybe she'll get real mad while Angel has acute battered-twink-itis and gives Val a rimjob or something
 
Found an old drawing of Viv's that gives a bit more credence to the leak about Sir Pentious dying:

GEfIYdHXQAEGjSs.jpg

If he does die trying to protect Cherri, I wouldn't be surprised if it led to him being redeemed and becoming a "winner." He'd probably be the first one we see. In retrospect, "It Starts with Sorry" feels like it's meant to foreshow his redemption. But maybe I'm coping. *sigh*
 
Found an old drawing of Viv's that gives a bit more credence to the leak about Sir Pentious dying:

View attachment 5660675

If he does die trying to protect Cherri, I wouldn't be surprised if it led to him being redeemed and becoming a "winner." He'd probably be the first one we see. In retrospect, "It Starts with Sorry" feels like it's meant to foreshow his redemption. But maybe I'm coping. *sigh*
Oh, is this even a wonder?
Sir Pentious is going to die in some melodramatic scene to make it seem like the story actually has any teeth, and it'll probably serve as the catalyst to Charlie abandoning the redemption project. I've never seen a more disposable character be simultaneously the most tolerable of the main cast.
 
Oh, is this even a wonder?
Sir Pentious is going to die in some melodramatic scene to make it seem like the story actually has any teeth, and it'll probably serve as the catalyst to Charlie abandoning the redemption project. I've never seen a more disposable character be simultaneously the most tolerable of the main cast.
I'm specifically talking about his redemption. Though I would also not be surprised if he simply died for good considering who he's based on and how Viv is a petty bitch. Either way, the warning flags for him are obvious.
 
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Same with Lillith. She doesn't exist. If you're gonna use Christianity as a base, get the story straight.
Lilith was Adam's first wife that was banished from eden for wanting to be a girlboss bitch who don't need no man. Pairing her up with lucifer is unironically one of the very few historically clever things the show does.
 
I'll actually give Viv some credit, I'm willing to bet that the creation myth we've been told will be disproved as the 'storybook' version that Charlie grew up with, and a 'big moment' will be Charlie coping with Lucifer being a (shock, gasp) liar.

That being said, it wouldn't be the first time I've written a more interesting story trying to explain this shit.
 
I have watched the linked video of Adam's song and nothing else.

It does seem to me like one of the two original sinners might just have gotten a special deal, because he sure isn't acting like someone who deserved to go to Heaven. Maybe not that he actually went to hell and was redeemed, but more that he was bound for it and got a Heavenly corner of purgatory instead.
 
Side note: Do we know who currently owns Hazbin? There was that whole rumor that Vivzie actually surrendered the rights to HH to Amazon, but do we have any update on that? Who currently owns Hazbin? Vivzie? A24? Bezos?
 
I'll actually give Viv some credit, I'm willing to bet that the creation myth we've been told will be disproved as the 'storybook' version that Charlie grew up with, and a 'big moment' will be Charlie coping with Lucifer being a (shock, gasp) liar.

That being said, it wouldn't be the first time I've written a more interesting story trying to explain this shit.
That'd be a lot easier to consider if Adam and the other angels weren't actively portrayed as fundamentally immoral. Maybe Helluva Boss shows off more traditionally good angels, I haven't seen it, but the representative of Heaven in Adam hasn't been shown to have any kind of moral complexity. If Heaven isn't actually evil, or at least fundamentally corrupt, then why has someone like Adam not only been allowed to rise but become a representative of them?
 


it does have quite a few catchier songs. And even the more meh ones are vastly superior to Disney's Wish, aside from the swearing and general crudeness and violence.
 
Not to sound like a broken record, but literally what is there to stop Charlie from swatting Angel aside and burning Val to death on the spot instead of letting all these horny twinks talk to her like that?
Because power levels are not established well. From what we can guess demonic power is tied to followers either willing subjects or those indebted to you. Think like orks from 40k.

Charlie might be as weak if not weaker then the average sinner. Simply being the offspring of a powerful demon doesn't seem to impart any power to a demon. Least it didnt for the other overlord who killed an angel.

Charlie's power is the shadow of her father and mother. She might be powerless herself comparatively just no one wants to anger her parents.
 
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Because power levels are not established well. From what we can guess demonic power is tied to followers either willing subjects or those indebted to you. Think like orks from 40k.

Charlie might be as weak if not weaker then the average winner. Simply being the offspring of a power demon doesn't seem to impart any power to a demon. Least it didnt for the other overlord who killed an angel.

Charlie's power is the shadow of her father and mother. She might be powerless herself comparatively just no one wants to anger her parents.
"not established well"?
Power levels are bullshit, nothing's been established here.
 
I waited a bit for the influx of featured posters to die down, but I do want to play devil's advocate. Even if I agree with most posts about tone deafness, pacing, and bloated character and low world building etc.

Episode one establishes the world through Charlie's (untrustworthy) narration. Her presentation of how things work re redemption is then immediately broken by Adam, leaving us to wonder what else is false. The time bomb that moves the plot is dropped (dead angel, sped up extermination) and the 7 year mystery gap is introduced (Lilith has been gone). Scene set.

Episode two confirms the gap being meaningful by the fact Alistor was gone for 7 years too and suddenly is back (possibly has alterior motives for being at the hotel). It introduces (many) characters and conflicts. It also shows Angel being jealous of Pentious getting affirmation and feeling trapped, Vox not being as powerful alone and needing the Vs.

Episode three confirms the dead angel was indeed demon work and highlights Alistor is collecting info and not sharing it. It also shows demons can have noble causes. There's more character work attempts. Notably, the crew participating in the battle exercise (Angel being good at it and Pentious sucking) and having fun with each other after. Pentious sleeps on the dead angel info.

Episode four focuses on characters more than plot, showing how Charlie doesn't want to use her status, emphasising she doesn't understand the world once more and is unrealistially naive. It establishes Angel is Val's property and Husk is Alistor's and neither feel they can change because of it.

The problem is, most of these story beats are lost in bloat. I'm curious to see where it goes. Let's see if it picks up what it laid down.

Edit: spelling
 
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That'd be a lot easier to consider if Adam and the other angels weren't actively portrayed as fundamentally immoral. Maybe Helluva Boss shows off more traditionally good angels, I haven't seen it, but the representative of Heaven in Adam hasn't been shown to have any kind of moral complexity. If Heaven isn't actually evil, or at least fundamentally corrupt, then why has someone like Adam not only been allowed to rise but become a representative of them?
It seems to order the demons and Angel's via the teachings of king Solomon. Angel's have different castes. Adam isn't necessarily there by merit but rather due to his caste being the one designated to be there.
 
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