Undertale

[NSJAP]

 

[Oilspill Battery]

Now we need to find the opposite to this. Something something hard labour, having to exercise a lot (doesn't mean gymnastics, but exercise in order to get results, and no shortcuts) and toil hard?

Its called Kenshi.

 

[What can I say?]

I know it's incredibly unlikely but I do hope Papyrus get's a bigger role in future chapters, we practically know less about him than we know about Sans and he's the only monster in Undertale that's capable of limiting himself to a point where he literally cannot kill you. There has to be more to him, he's arguably one of the most mysterious characters in Undertale, second only to Wing Dings himself.

 

[Dr. Ricearoni]

I know it's incredibly unlikely but I do hope Papyrus get's a bigger role in future chapters, we practically know less about him than we know about Sans and he's the only monster in Undertale that's capable of limiting himself to a point where he literally cannot kill you. There has to be more to him, he's arguably one of the most mysterious characters in Undertale, second only to Wing Dings himself.

What's interesting is sans has never referred to him as papyrus even once in Deltarune. It's always "my brother." It'd be interesting if his brother isn't papyrus.

 

[Smack Patrick]

if his brother isn't papyrus.

Wonder if it'll be Roman since that's what Papyrus was originally meant to be named iirc.

 

[Lizard Machine Bugs]

I know it's incredibly unlikely but I do hope Papyrus get's a bigger role in future chapters, we practically know less about him than we know about Sans and he's the only monster in Undertale that's capable of limiting himself to a point where he literally cannot kill you. There has to be more to him, he's arguably one of the most mysterious characters in Undertale, second only to Wing Dings himself.

We might see the brothers in in the next Chapter, Toby has a natural place to include them now and with the confirmation Monsters bleed in Deltarune and with the ending song of Chapter 4 being "The Place where it Rained", basically confirms Deltarune Sand is the same person as Undertale Sans with his song, "It's raining somewhere else".
Although I'm not that fond of Sans, he's a bit overrated.

 

[electrician's apprentice]

I replayed ch1 yesterday, it's kind of crazy the jump in quality from ch1 to 2 in the way of graphics
Also was jevil always this easy?? I remember him being this ultra super boss that I almost gave up on but this time I beat him in a couple of tries and most of them was just relearning his attacks

ok after this I did Chapter 2 Spamton neo in two tries and that's only because I was stupid in the first one ,and the second one I almost did no hit win
Did I just get way better at this game? I remember it being way harder

 

[Spamton G. Spamton]

Probably just recency bias.

Chapter 4 was very fun to play I have to say. Using climbing for the final boss was a cool touch, as well as having the chance to jump in and out of the Dark Worlds throughout the chapter broke up the gameplay well. The best part of Chatper 3 was going into the Secret Boss blind. Finding out that you can play a forbidden videogame, watching Kris playing a game within the game with the good soundtrack backing it was really tense. I think Toby's writing is at its best when you are in environments or places you shouldn't be in, and the uncertainty of what was going to happen when you got to the end of the game was spooky.

Also Ramb was kino.

 

[Skeletron Prime]

I don't get where people are getting the idea that Kris disliked or had a bad relationship with his brother. If anything, there's tons of evidence that they were close and that Asriel leaving for college was why Kris became as sullen and creepy as he's known in the town: without his brother to butter up other people to his presence, he's basically known as an anti-social trickster who, up until recently, was Susie's favorite target. But it's not like there's a straight up hate for the kid - a lot of people comment on his recent actions being completely out of character and seem kind of worried about him. He's frequently a bit babied by other characters looking out for him, including Toriel, Alphys, Asgore, and the diner owner whose name escapes me right now. There's definitely an aspect of Kris living in Asriel's shadow all these years and that no one in town really knows him well besides Noelle.

It's evident that Kris doesn't trust Ralsei until the latter starts opening up a bit more about his existence being essentially predicated on service. Ralsei Tea in Chapter 2 doesn't heal Kris for as much as Susie or Noelle Tea, for example. I've yet to test myself if the number increases in later chapters. If anything, I think it's another example of the SOUL making Kris do more things that make him deeply uncomfortable. The fluffy boy talk and hugging and flirting is more fanservice to those that find Ralsei cute, but in universe the SOUL is basically forcing Kris to be affectionate with his brother's doppelganger in increasingly uncomfortable ways. Not that Toby Fox is a genius or anything, but being able to flip that fan behavior on its head and turn it into fridge horror if is pretty par for the course with his stuff.

 

[vvilford]

 

[Dr. Ricearoni]

I don't get where people are getting the idea that Kris disliked or had a bad relationship with his brother. If anything, there's tons of evidence that they were close and that Asriel leaving for college was why Kris became as sullen and creepy as he's known in the town: without his brother to butter up other people to his presence, he's basically known as an anti-social trickster who, up until recently, was Susie's favorite target. But it's not like there's a straight up hate for the kid - a lot of people comment on his recent actions being completely out of character and seem kind of worried about him. He's frequently a bit babied by other characters looking out for him, including Toriel, Alphys, Asgore, and the diner owner whose name escapes me right now. There's definitely an aspect of Kris living in Asriel's shadow all these years and that no one in town really knows him well besides Noelle.

It's evident that Kris doesn't trust Ralsei until the latter starts opening up a bit more about his existence being essentially predicated on service. Ralsei Tea in Chapter 2 doesn't heal Kris for as much as Susie or Noelle Tea, for example. I've yet to test myself if the number increases in later chapters. If anything, I think it's another example of the SOUL making Kris do more things that make him deeply uncomfortable. The fluffy boy talk and hugging and flirting is more fanservice to those that find Ralsei cute, but in universe the SOUL is basically forcing Kris to be affectionate with his brother's doppelganger in increasingly uncomfortable ways. Not that Toby Fox is a genius or anything, but being able to flip that fan behavior on its head and turn it into fridge horror if is pretty par for the course with his stuff.

You can't test how the tea changes between chapters, because it rots after chapter 2. That more or less confirms tea theory at least but unless we come across more tea in future chapters that's all we're getting

 

[Raisincrest]

I've yet to test myself if the number increases in later chapters.

I'm pretty sure I remember reading that any type of leftover tea from chapter 2 is replaced by RottenTea, which only heals for 10HP.

 

[Point 707]

I don't get where people are getting the idea that Kris disliked or had a bad relationship with his brother. If anything, there's tons of evidence that they were close and that Asriel leaving for college was why Kris became as sullen and creepy as he's known in the town: without his brother to butter up other people to his presence, he's basically known as an anti-social trickster who, up until recently, was Susie's favorite target.

It's not that they have a bad relationship per se, but their relationship is clearly one of the 'favorite child' vs the 'unfavorite'.

Kris and Asriel share a room, and we can clearly see from the very beginning of the game that Asriel was heavily favored as Toriel & Asgore's biological son. Asriel's side of the room has a computer, stickers and paintings on the wall, and a gaming console under the bed, while Kris's side has almost nothing.

We don't know much about Asriel's personality, but based on the comments of various characters, the presence of numerous awards/trophies in his room, and the fact that he is studying at college, suggests that Asriel was well-liked, attractive, gregarious, confident, and intelligent, basically a golden boy. Kris is the exact opposite, a loner with no notable achievements, awards or trophies, a misfit who isn't exactly hated by the town, but a person who no one has gone out of their way to befriend either. Kris is the only human in the town. We don't know what the exact status of humans is in the Deltarune world, and though we know it's not outright hostility like in Undertale (after all, the prophecy clearly specifies a human as a savoir figure) we know that humans are not common and might even be seen as lower status than monsters.

Ralsei then, is basically a dark inversion of Asriel based on Kris's inferiority complex. Ralsei is excessively demure, compliant, melancholy, subservient, and effeminate, the opposite of Asriel in real life. Starting from early in Ch 1, you can choose to treat Ralesi with kindness, or bully him though actions like ripping up his manual right in from of him. In the dark world, Kris gets to be the hero and Ralsei is relegated to playing the sidekick, the opposite of real life.

 

[Manimal House]

Chapters 3 and 4 are out now and I honestly would rather just watch playthroughs of it.

I decided to do just that instead of buying it. I'm glad I did because had I bought the game and played it, I'd be watching them anyways because no way in HELL would I replay any of this to get the alternate routes and turn every stone in the process. This is what I meant when I said that Undertale did it better because the game was relatively short so the replayability didn't feel so taxing. On top of that, there's still three more chapters to go. How do I know the available chapters won't get updated or messed with when the others release, forcing me to go through everything from the start just to get a full story? Even if that doesn't happen I'd still have to start from the beginning to keep track of what I do in order to hit the checkboxes in the game to get the ending I'm looking for. Maybe when the full game is out I'll buy a copy but until then I don't see the point.

Spoiler: Spoilered thoughts to save space

I have more questions than answers now and it's irritating me.
-Seems that Dess is to Kris as Noelle is to Asriel. One sibling is the goody-two-shoes star pupil and the other is troubled and doesn't give much of a shit. Apparently Dess is a hockey playing metalhead who hung out with Kris a lot, as shown by the stuff in her room. I can't tell if she bullied Kris or if that's just the type of friends he gets, such as Suzie. Was there any mentioning of the relationship between Asriel and Dess or Noelle?
-In the chapter 3 flashback sequence that shows everyone watching TV, we see Dess disappear first, then Carol, then Asgore, then Noelle. Rudy, however, stuck around for get-togethers at Toriel's house longer than anyone else besides Asriel. While at church, Rudy is also talking to Toriel a lot, even metnioning how 'key lime pie brings back good memories' and Toriel tell him to shut up because they're in a holy place. Okay....so Toriel banged Rudy at some point I guess, the question is when? Asgore seems pretty chummy with Carol since he's showing up at her house and getting his flower shop bankrolled by her, Toriel refuses to use Carol's name when talking to Rudy (he even points it out and she still refuses), not sure who wronged who first but SOMETHING happened there and I'm betting it had something to do with Dess' disappearance.

What's that goat bitch hiding?

^This part reads as a clue that Toriel had a hand in Dess becoming the Knight. She was the Knights target, wasn't she?
-The 'Proceed' part in Noelle's room feels less sexual now with all of the context, but still feels gross because now it comes off as though Kris made her his pet or something. Noelle is going through a crisis where she thinks she's super weak and with her dad almost dead, missing older sister and a frigid bitch of a mom who neglects and stresses her out, she has no protector. In the weird route she becomes convinced that the snowgrave was real and Kris can make her stronger if she just simply does what he says, right? I didn't notice at first but during that scene right before it goes black her eyes change to red and she gets this creepy smile on her face like she becomes obsessed, which is emphasized by later when she says 'thank you' when Kris thinks of her and she is looking forward to seeing him at the festival. So I don't think it was a metaphor for rape.....just buckbroken in general.

I already said it but this whole game is just a therapy session rooted in abuse and trauma. Recent chapters are themed in the 'neglect' category and that's fine and all but goddammit can't we get closure on SOMETHING besides the depressed washed up CRT? Fuckin a. Since it's been split off into two different story routes I'm going to give two different theories and put it to rest for now:
1. Dess was a problem child and Toriel didn't like her but put up with her anyways for the sake of her kids having a friend. She was a bad influence on Kris and joined in on his pranks and dickishness (because that's what neglected problem children do; negative attention is better than no attention) until Toriel banned her from coming over again. Dess disappeared by wandering off/exploring on her own (probably depressed) and then got pulled into the dark world somehow. Asgore made it his mission to find her and sacrificed all other police work to do so, losing his job at the station but is still looking for clues while Carol is letting him rent the flower shop as a cover. Toriel doesn't approve because she knows it's all bullshit and wants everyone to move on, which is why she's mad at Asgore for sacrificing so much on a wild goose chase for a girl that causes problems. Suzie is nice in comparison to Dess which is why Toriel is giving her a chance, Noelle admires Suzies independence and punk attitude (which reminds her of Dess, hence why she was comfortable letting Suzie hang in Dess' room) but Carol doesn't approve because Suzie is no substitute for Dess and won't allow Noelle to think that.
2. The friendship between the two families was dependent on the parents, not the kids. The dads were college buddies that still hung out with their families, but the wives didn't like each other and one of them crossed a line and started drama while the kids were forced to hang out with each other because their parents hung out all the time. At first I thought that Carol got too friendly with Asgore (due to her husband dying and wanting to jump ship and have someone else to fill the role), but after seeing Toriel's chat with Rudy and all else I mentioned, it could have been Toriel that did it or both. Either way, the kids hung out together but they didn't really have a choice. As a result of one home losing a father to illness and another to divorce, and both homes with tension, Dess let herself get lost and Asriel just wanted to escape, leaving Kris as an outcast with no self-control and Noelle misunderstood with no security.

Two more things: Since I'm thinking Dess is the alpha to Suzie's beta, her time spent in the Dark world played out exactly how Suzie's would have if she never had Kris or Ralsei to teach her mercy. Also, when Carol says to Kris he's welcome any time, she wasn't talking to Kris, but the player, right? Feels like a 'DUH' question, but I can't tell with this damn game anymore. That's about it. Puzzle, disagree or trash can sticker this if you wish but if I missed something or got shit completely wrong then I'm all ears.

 

[ducktales4gameboy]

Did I just get way better at this game? I remember it being way harder

I felt the same but I've been playing a bunch of bullethells in the last couple years and really none of the patterns in DR save for the superfast one the chapter 3 extra boss has are that bad (personal vote that the rotating version of that attack is one of the most bullshit patterns of all time in any bhell). I think Tenna was my first death and that was just because I made a dumb mistake.

I'm pretty sure I remember reading that any type of leftover tea from chapter 2 is replaced by RottenTea, which only heals for 10HP.

It does, happened on my playthrough.

 

[Oilspill Battery]

Deltarune fans are the worst kind of pseuds.
They take a perfectly innocent character like Noelle

She's like 13 years old and already a lesbian, we can safely assume she's a molestation/grooming victim, there's nothing innocent about her to begin with.

 

[Lapsus of the bepsus]

(personal vote that the rotating version of that attack is one of the most bullshit patterns of all time in any bhell)

that one isnt that hard, the hitboxes are a bit wonky and it does huge damage but its not like the movement required from you is difficult.
imo the most unfair move is the upgraded lemonbread slice where he splits the board in a random direction. its hard enough to dodge the bullets themselves and theres no way to predict which way the next hit will go because i physically cant keep track of all that shit happening on the screen so sometimes id just eat shit and have no way to avoid it. ended up beating it very cleanly on a particularly lucky go even though i had really shit armor, with practice it eventually works out.

beat the full game on snowgrave now and went back to chapter 1 to collect jevils crystal. pretty cool experience, i havent played ch1 since the demo released. its like going back to a different, simpler game. theres some minor differences in the ui as it got fleshed out in the later chapters that are still there in the newest game version.

Rudy is also talking to Toriel a lot, even metnioning how 'key lime pie brings back good memories' and Toriel tell him to shut up because they're in a holy place. Okay....so Toriel banged Rudy at some point I guess, the question is when?

rudy explains this if you visit him at the hospital in ch1. he says toriel used to be a party animal in college and threw a pie at him across a room. theres probably more to that story but maybe shes just embarrassed to have him talking about it in church.
i like your theory, you bring up a bunch of good points i havent thought of before

another thing i noticed during my full playthrough, might be obvious to most but it struck me

Spoiler

the mystery phonecall to kris, presumably from carol, mentions some kind of plan "next week". you know whats happening "next week"? asriel is coming back.

everything about carol is suspicious as fuck, im wondering if she knows about snowgrave and wants (you) to train noelle to beat the knight because its dess, and she wants it defeated without physically obliterating it? would explain a lot. at this point the story could go any one of a trillion ways that would still make some sense.

also gaster fucking lives. hes not the guy giving you eggs from behind a tree but come on, its so plainly obvious that the all caps narrator voice is him, and in the chapter 4 epilogue he pretty much promises to get personally involved in the later chapters.

 

[ruckingfetard]

Huh. In chapter 1
if you talk to one of the creatures behind the apartment door, they ask Kris "does it hurt to be made of blood?"
Do the monsters in this game actually bleed or not??? I mean obviously we know they do by chapter 4, but the monster behind the door made it seem like it's not the norm.

 

[Coolio55]

Ralsei then, is basically a dark inversion of Asriel based on Kris's inferiority complex. Ralsei is excessively demure, compliant, melancholy, subservient, and effeminate, the opposite of Asriel in real life. Starting from early in Ch 1, you can choose to treat Ralesi with kindness, or bully him though actions like ripping up his manual right in from of him. In the dark world, Kris gets to be the hero and Ralsei is relegated to playing the sidekick, the opposite of real life.

This is furthered by the fact that Kris's room in the dark world is mirrored, with all of the items on his side.
The other side of the room is completely barren and in shadow, possibly because Ralsei has his own (empty) room.

Huh. In chapter 1
if you talk to one of the creatures behind the apartment door, they ask Kris "does it hurt to be made of blood?"
Do the monsters in this game actually bleed or not??? I mean obviously we know they do by chapter 4, but the monster behind the door made it seem like it's not the norm.

I saw some people theorizing that Susie is actually a half-breed but there's no real consensus on it.

 

[anliteralidiot]

I feel like I'm going crazy, but I had a realization earlier when playing Chapter 4, and the whole mirroring of the world...
Did Toby Fox do the cool musical palindrome thing? Because when I reversed the Dark Sanctuary theme... It sounds like he did?

I also got to the secret boss in chapter 4, and I don't know how I missed it before, but his last attack reminded me of a Touhou, with the spiraling bullet patterns going back and forth, and how he's pulling out different patterns on every turn...

Then my husband sent me this:


The spellcard for reference:

And I'm autistic, but there's definitely a pattern here: Toby Fox is using the spellcard of a polar opposite Touhou character.
Water :: Fire
Spry old man :: sleepy young-looking lady
He's actually dead, her spellcard is, "Boundary of life and death." There might even be a deeper connection, as Gerson uses an arranged Undyne theme, and the respective Touhou he might be borrowing from also uses an arranged theme from one of their underlings, but I'm getting too deep in the weeds.