RIP to all the lives lost.. poor people just flying.
Can't wait to hear the details of who weren't where they were supposed to be and who wasn't paying attention. (DEI air traffic control?) Because somebody sure as hell wasn't! These air spaces are tightly regulated and controlled. Or supposed to be normally. Somebody, or more than likely with these types of events, somebodies fucked up big time!
This is going to be an ep of Air Disasters in all likelihood. They've been getting a lot of new stories lately.... sadly.
Call me crazy, but my Ebonics sense is going off with the voice in recording of the ATC.
Plus DC being incredibly black, nearly as failed as Detroit and Oakland, and also woke as hell and the recent “meritocracy is racism, DEI at all levels, jaykwon deserves that six figure ATC paycheck for reparations n shieet”
I could easily see DEI genius giving the role of two ATCs to one nigger, especially in DC
Literally the night before the fatal accident, at the same airport (Reagan) a different commercial airliner had to execute an emergency go-around due to almost colliding with another Black Hawk helicopter on "an annual proficiency flight"
Here's a screenshot of that article as Fox News does this annoying thing where new articles are constantly pushing the old articles down and this one is now buried.
So in this case TCAS saved their ass.
Was this more tranny terrorism? I have seen this rumor on X for a few hours tonight and was very hesitant at first to believe it- too convenient. However it's making its way over to more reliable posters and some of the background research this guy has done in this thread seems suggestive at the very least.
Jo Ellis is still alive according to a WO in the unit. His/her FB profile image was changed to a black ribbon, which would probably indicate him changing it himself though I suppose someone else could have done so.
I’m sure there is serious lockdown right now at the base and soldiers letting the brass and press officers handle this shitshow.
The pilot is at fault for this crash and has the blood of 65 people on their hands. They are going to step carefully about releasing the name. The two other crew members don’t have the “pilot-in-command who caused a catastrophic mass casualty event” title, they were victims too.
If it was a Troon, one who gave an interview the day before, I can’t imagine Trump wouldn’t be loudly jumping all over that shit as proof troon’s need to be out of the military asap because they are mentally ill murderers and/or incompetent.
I can partly understand why night vision goggles might hinder a pilot more than help one in an urban flight scenario but is there anyone more versed on the subject that could explain why specifically this could be an aggravating factor in this instance?
Also, are white phosphorus goggles the night vision type where heat appears as white or as black?
I've only been able to skim through the videos so I recognize that this may have already been addressed but they seem to only briefly mention the NVG subject in passing so I was curious if anyone else could elaborate since I wasn't even sure what to look up to answer my own question.
I can partly understand why night vision goggles might hinder a pilot more than help one in an urban flight scenario but is there anyone more versed on the subject that could explain why specifically this could be an aggravating factor in this instance?
Also, are white phosphorus goggles the night vision type where heat appears as white or as black?
I've only been able to skim through the videos so I recognize that this may have already been addressed but they seem to only briefly mention the NVG subject in passing so I was curious if anyone else could elaborate since I wasn't even sure what to look up to answer my own question.
The NVG negate depth perception and give terrible field of vision, it’s flying using binoculars. I think they estimate you have 40% of your normal FOV using NVG.
In the immediate aftermath many pilots dismissed the idea that NVG would be in use because they were flying on a clear night in a city with lots of lights, it would be much better to use VFR in a helicopter under those conditions. All the city lights, airport lights, etc…make NVG very unideal to fly with in an urban area. NVG are best for black nights over desolate, unlit areas where you only have total blackness without them.
BUT it was revealed they were using NVG because that was the entire point of the helicopter flight - testing/evaluation of pilot flying with NVG. Pilot obviously failed the evaluation.
The entire helicopter crew was using NVG. The pilot never saw the plane, but neither did flight instructor on board. All because their FOV was very restricted with NVG.
The really odd thing is why they were flying at 300-400 feet, when they were supposed to be at 200. Had they been at 200 feet everybody would be alive today. I’m thinking the lack of depth perception with NVG might have something to do with it, but their instruments should have made it very clear they were flying 150 feet too high.
(Idk how Blackhawk copters cockpits work, but since copters are designed to fly at low altitudes I figure they have pretty precise readings unlike planes instruments that assume if you are below 1000 feet is because you are on approach to land.)
Adding on to this, just saw an article in the Daily Mail from another Blackhawk pilot. Spoiler, he’s a fucking idiot (maybe I’m being unfair) and this implies there is some deficits in training for military helicopter pilots. link to article
He says he doesn’t like the way ATC handled it because they only asked if they could accept a visual separation. He says: “That's not a helpful instruction from the perspective of a pilot, because they wouldn't know where to look.” Which is exactly why pilots can ask for more information and reject the responsibility of keeping a distance. ATC are not pilots, if a pilot needs more, it is on them to know what they need.
“You can also hear air traffic control giving the Black Hawk permission to 'go behind' the approaching aircraft, but if the Black Hawk didn't see that aircraft, they wouldn't know where to go.” - which is exactly why they must confirm a visual (they did) and immediately alert ATC if they are unsure or lose sight. If there are other lights allowing possible confusion, again they must alert ATC to that to get more information.
No doubt ATC could have done more, because that’s how these things always go. And for sure the NTSB will make recommendations based on that. But this is a pretty simple case as far as we know, and an extremely common issue in helicopter crashes, where everything goes wrong extremely fast because the pilots don’t keep the strict awareness those machines necessitate.
Over-reliance on visuals have been a factor in so many helicopter crashes. Instruments are there for a reason but people get tunnel vision, as the saying goes, “we fail to the level of our training”. I’m never getting into one of those things.
What is the justification for [your opinion that ATC shares some of the responsible for the crash]? By the time their alarm went off they were getting no response
00.27 ATC: PAT25, traffic just south of the Woodrow bridge, a CRJ, it's 1200 feet setting up for runway 33.
00.33 PAT25: PAT25 has the traffic in sight, request visual separation.
00.35 ATC: Visual separation approved.
01.08 [ATC automated conflict alert warning sounds]
01.10 ATC: PAT25 do you have the CRJ in sight?
01.12 ATC: PAT25 pass behind the CRJ.
01.16 PAT25: Yes we have the aircraft in sight, request visual separation.
01.17 ATC: Visual separation approved.
01.26 *Collision*
So I'm not an ATC expert or anything, just a plane crash autist, but in terms of actual mistakes made by ATC, here's a list
• Widely reported ATC was way understaffed.
• ATC did not ensure Black Hawk PAT25 was operating at or below it's permitted altitude of 200 feet. ATC never asks PAT25 to confirm their altitude despite seeing on the monitor that they were too high and out of their permitted flight corridor.
• The Black Hawk PAT25 TWICE requested "visual separation" permission from ATC, and twice it was IMMEDIATELY approved when it probably should not have been. This suggests to me that there is a culture of ATC not questioning or slowing down these PAT military flights, and a culture of these PAT military flights doing whatever they want.
• ATC should have been more forceful and authoritative with PAT25. ATC runs the sky in civilian Class Bravo airspace not PAT25 or the military. ATC can deny them clearance or make them hold if they think it's unsafe, but in the radio traffic PAT25 seems to have this arrogant attitude of "why are you bothering me, fuck off"... as evidenced by PAT25 not even bothering with a readback of the traffic advisory.
• ATC could have told PAT25 to hold pending the AA 5342 circle to land approach.
• When the tower got the collision alert warning, ATC should have immediately asked PAT25 to confirm their altitude and/or descend, or told PAT25 where to look for AA 5342 (instead of just asking if they had the traffic in sight for the second time in two minutes).
• ATC absolutely should not have approved PAT25's second request for visual separation, ten seconds before the crash, after ATC received an automated collision alert warning. This was the moment to give PAT25 emergency instructions or an emergency advisory, not approve whatever PAT25 wanted to do.
That said, I absolutely agree the the fault for this accident primarily lies with the Black Hawk crew. These are just some thoughts on what else ATC could have done or done better.
Overall, it seems to me there is a culture of ATC permitting whatever these PAT (Priority Air Transport) military flights wanted to do, no matter how dangerous, since the flights are typically carrying high-level Army and DoD VIPs and doing secretive Continuity of Government missions.
I get the impression that ATC workers didn't want to get in trouble with the Army / DoD by holding up these PAT military flights, even for a minute.
And it seems like the PAT military flight crews felt like they were the most important aircraft in the sky, and everyone else should just get out of their way.
Something I’ve been wondering since night one, looking at the video of the Blackhawk flying straight into that plane, and even more today hearing the Blackhawk was flying 100 feet higher than allowed AND appeared to be veering off course- was this a suicide mission by one of the crewmembers? Like that German pilot that flew a jet full of passengers into the side of a mountain a few years ago?
Fun fact: in ye olde days, Air Force planes collided with civilian planes many times because military and civilian air traffic controllers were entirely separate and did not talk to each other.
Something I’ve been wondering since night one, looking at the video of the Blackhawk flying straight into that plane, and even more today hearing the Blackhawk was flying 100 feet higher than allowed AND appeared to be veering off course- was this a suicide mission by one of the crewmembers? Like that German pilot that flew a jet full of passengers into the side of a mountain a few years ago?
Military crashes happen fairly regularly, but the vast majority of them are mechanical failures, bird strikes, and hard landings. Not every crash results in a total loss of the aircraft, and most don't result in loss of life.
Another observation is that the pilot was a warrant officer. The Army is somewhat unique in that they will take enlisted crew chiefs and aircrewman from the Navy and Marines, make them warrant officers, then teach them to fly helicopters. There's a very good chance the pilot was a prior enlisted aircrewman. I don't know if that has any bearing on their skills, but they might be the only pilots in the military that don't need a bachelor's degree.
Something I’ve been wondering since night one, looking at the video of the Blackhawk flying straight into that plane, and even more today hearing the Blackhawk was flying 100 feet higher than allowed AND appeared to be veering off course- was this a suicide mission by one of the crewmembers? Like that German pilot that flew a jet full of passengers into the side of a mountain a few years ago?
The Black Hawk PAT25 TWICE requested "visual separation" permission from ATC, and twice it was IMMEDIATELY approved when it probably should not have been.
Why should it not have been approved? If a pilot says they can see something, it is not on ATC to make sure they aren’t lying. Even so, ATC questioned them because their pathing didn’t change and presumably they reconfirmed the visual (radio cuts out) because ATC responds with a direction (go below/behind iirc).
This suggests to me that there is a culture of ATC not questioning or slowing down these PAT military flights, and a culture of these PAT military flights doing whatever they want.
I don’t share this view. Reasons above. This seems like a leap made on the basis it’s military, when really ATC deals with the milatry all the time.. They said they could see the plane when they couldn’t. That is the sort of thing that kills people all the time.
Holding up? ATC was just trying to space the traffic out, which would not hold the helicopter up, and they would be used to that anyway over such busy airspace.
Okay, but that‘s hindsight. This is all fine to speculate but in the community post you said ATC was a secondary contributing factor which just fuels the “Trump at fault for halting hiring for that agency” or “ATC ruined by DEI” crowds. Really, the secondary contributing factors could also be the busy airspace or the fact it was at night. It’s just a strange conclusion to declare at this point. ATC will likely have a lot of recommendations made because that’s how these things work, rightly so, but on the surface they did not do anything actually wrong.
Thanks for clarifying. I’m also a plane crash autist.
Slaughters dozens of people but we can never know the name because the family says so? Interesting.
Those sycophantic responses remind me of the ar15 forums that's full of cops who will defend every bad shooting to the death.
In addition, Pete Hegseth, the newly confirmed defense secretary, has said that the military has diminished its standards by welcoming women and racial minorities into its ranks. He has echoed Mr. Trump’s comments on rooting out diversity programs in the government.
